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The Glory Land

Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

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.....................................

 

It was good of you to take all of that out of you post, yet I received a notification that had what you had posted, you did not edited it fast enough to keep it from being sent out so that I could know just what you stated.

 

Yes, your stiff necked, & you also love to mock those you disagree with, you love to reviler those you disagree with, you love to put down those you disagree with, yet it will not make you look Christ like when doing that.

 

If I cared not for the influence fellow my fellow Christians put forth in this world, the stumbling blocks they place before weak our weak bothers & sisters & the lost, I would not have tried to show you nor anyone on this forum the evils of drinking & how it goes against the teaching of our Savior.

 

So i will refuse to do you as you do others trying my best to abide by God's 'Golden Rule.'

 

Mt 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

Its quite amazing at the umber of Christians who pay no heed to the Golden Rule & openly mock their brothers & sister ins Christ especially when that brother or sister disagrees with them while actually trying to help them out of love.

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Jesus Makes Wine

 

John 2:1-10

1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

 

 

Luke 5:39

 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

 

Did Jesus make old wine or new wine?

Edited by Eric Stahl

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While there does come a point at times when a thread needs locked, that should be the last recourse. We here claim to be mature Christians. A Mod, or even just another member, should be able to call for those who post in an unchristian manner to stop doing so, and we should recognize our offense, repent, apologize and carry on the discussion in Christian civility or refrain from posting.

 

Typically there are only a few here that violate such a great deal. Perhaps Mods could address them directly so others can carry on discussions. As we've seen in the past, if a thread is locked that simply halts what's going on in that thread. The bad attitude and unchristian style postings then simply show up in other threads.

 

And it seems the tint of a persons rose colored glasses rightly decides for that person if a topic should be locked or not.

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Pretty much everyone who believes drinking alcohol isn't in of itself a sin will not be holding in contention the possibility that Jesus drank alcohol at some point, precisely because they don't think it's a sin.

So what you've said above is a distinction without a difference. In effect, anyone who claims to be a Christian and touches alcohol is "not serving the same Christ" as you and therefore isn't actually a Christian. Ergo my point stands.

Furthermore, here are a few examples of comments you've made that lead to the conclusion that anyone who drinks alcohol is not saved:

"So many are in hell today because they don't know what the Bible says concerning alcohol..."

"Just one drink... that is all it takes to put one on the road to destruction."

"You can continue to reason out ways to justify your sin all you want, but I am afraid that if you don't repent, you will one day hear the Savior say, Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fires prepared for the devil and his angels... I never knew you."

If not knowing what the Bible says concerning alcohol means one goes to hell, then it logically follows that no matter how contrite one is about their sin nature, their propensity to sin, and the multitude of sins they've commited, and no matter how repentant, failure to recognise that sin means that Jesus will turn them away. QED.

 

Standing Firm seems to imply that the Christians that commits certain sins lose their salvation, & that is impossible.

 

And the Baptist, & those in the early years not known as Baptist yet held to the same distinetives as the true Baptist of today holds to did not teach nothing like this for its not in the pages of the Bible.

 

Now the coC, Church of Christ, teaches certain sins will cause a person to lose their salvation, although I have never had one of them tell me exactly what sin or sins it is that can cause a person to lose their salvation. Yet if that happened it would be impossible for that person to be saved again, yet the coC teaches a person that lose their salvation can be saved once again. 

 

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

Yet we who are saved are not the one who keeps our self saved. That would be impossible for us.

 

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
 
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
 
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

Its God who keeps us saved, we are kept by His power, not ours, & no one can take us out of His hands, no one, not even old Satan.

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No, I do not believe a person can lose his or her Salvation. Scripture is clear, our Salvation is secure in the Father's hands.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that a profession is not necessarily possession?

If one turns from the true Christ to follow a false one, that is a sign they were not truly saved to begin with.

James 2:20 (KJV)
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

1 Corinthians 15:2 (KJV) 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

It is possible for one to have "believed in vain."

John 8:31 (KJV)
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Pretty much everyone who believes drinking alcohol isn't in of itself a sin will not be holding in contention the possibility that Jesus drank alcohol at some point, precisely because they don't think it's a sin.

So what you've said above is a distinction without a difference. In effect, anyone who claims to be a Christian and touches alcohol is "not serving the same Christ" as you and therefore isn't actually a Christian. Ergo my point stands.

Furthermore, here are a few examples of comments you've made that lead to the conclusion that anyone who drinks alcohol is not saved:

"So many are in hell today because they don't know what the Bible says concerning alcohol..."

"Just one drink... that is all it takes to put one on the road to destruction."

"You can continue to reason out ways to justify your sin all you want, but I am afraid that if you don't repent, you will one day hear the Savior say, Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fires prepared for the devil and his angels... I never knew you."

If not knowing what the Bible says concerning alcohol means one goes to hell, then it logically follows that no matter how contrite one is about their sin nature, their propensity to sin, and the multitude of sins they've commited, and no matter how repentant, failure to recognise that sin means that Jesus will turn them away. QED.

 

Oh, I forgot to address one point, its underlined & in bold print above.

 

That point is true, if a person will never take that 1st drink, they will never be addicted to alcohol, becoming a drunk, & going down the road to destruction. There's been many people take that 1st drink of alcohol & from that point on have traveled the road of destruction & it ended deadly.

 

And most people take that 1st drink because of the influence of a person or persons whom they call their friends.

 

Just maybe your one of those that alcohol will not affect in that manner, that is if you drink. If you drink them you could influence one of your friends to take that 1st drink, & after that 1st drink they may be hooked, them travel down that road of destruction because of your influence.  Perhaps your friend would have never taken the road to drinking if you did not influence him or her by drinking the stuff.

 

Wow, there's many who have been totally destroyed by alcoholic beverages, & I have many friends who are now in the grave because of people who drink, having drove their car down the highway under the influence killing them.

 

A neighbor down the highway from me, several years ago their high school senior son & his girlfriend with both of them being very good kids were driving down the highway & along came a drunk hitting them, killing the boy, nearly killing the girl, as for the drunk he got a couple of scratches. This happens all to often & the person who lets that alcoholic beverages pass down their throats, & the one that drinks never knows when he or her will be the one killing someone, or influence someone to take that road of destruction.

 

Pr 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Pr 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Pr 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
 
Yes, alcoholic beverages biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder before that person who is consuming it knows what is taking place. And the drinking man or woman never knows when it may bite them. And its 100% for sure if it never passes down you throat it cannot bite you in that manner.

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You are not Nathan........you seem to think you are, but, you are not.  :realitycheck:  You are condemning something as sin which is not a sin, that's why.  Nathan would not do that.

 

There you go making accusations again trying to tear me down while trying to make your self look good.

 

I did not claim to be Nathan & anyone that's honest & reads my post can clearly tell that. 

 

You put up a very weak defense by attacking the one you disagree with.

 

Its true, they get mad or repent. Some even attack.

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Be ye not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be ye filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

The wine references all quoted are wine and not juice. It is made up nonsense to quote one of 200 contradicting greek translation books on what word means what. The Bible says wine and means wine in every instance. Put your greek translation books down and read the Bible how bout it.

 

As I stated before those who are addicted to alcohol must pray harder to be released from the snare of it. Those that drink for social acceptance, shame on you for caring what the lost or worldly saved think of you.

These references to a drunken Jesus rings a bell from years ago. I can't remember the name but some dude wrote this book so stop taking men's books on the Bible as Gospel and study the Bible.

 

The Jews drank wine as part of their ceremony and culture. Today, we drink it only for the drunk feeling (and addiction to it) or pathetic social acceptance.  So in many ways, total abstinence is truly the only way to avoid the sin of drunkenness.

 

Nothing that goes in the mouth defiles the man, but what comes out of the mouth, that defiles the man. Put allot of wine in your mouth and allot of words that defile you will spew out.

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Like all who advocate the drinking of alcohol, wretched tries to define the wine of the Bible using today's present definition of wine.

A serious error on his part.

 

Yes, the KJV uses the word wine.  But a proper study of wine in the early 17th century will reveal that wine was a generic term and did not always refer to alcohol.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Be ye not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be ye filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

The wine references all quoted are wine and not juice. It is made up nonsense to quote one of 200 contradicting greek translation books on what word means what. The Bible says wine and means wine in every instance. Put your greek translation books down and read the Bible how bout it.

 

As I stated before those who are addicted to alcohol must pray harder to be released from the snare of it. Those that drink for social acceptance, shame on you for caring what the lost or worldly saved think of you.

These references to a drunken Jesus rings a bell from years ago. I can't remember the name but some dude wrote this book so stop taking men's books on the Bible as Gospel and study the Bible.

 

The Jews drank wine as part of their ceremony and culture. Today, we drink it only for the drunk feeling (and addiction to it) or pathetic social acceptance.  So in many ways, total abstinence is truly the only way to avoid the sin of drunkenness.

 

Nothing that goes in the mouth defiles the man, but what comes out of the mouth, that defiles the man. Put allot of wine in your mouth and allot of words that defile you will spew out.

 

 

Truth is it does not take much wine for those words to proceed from a mouth.

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Matthew 15:17-20 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So many like to say "it's not what goes into the mouth that defileth the man, but what comes out."  The passage above shows what comes from the heart defile the man.  One of those things is evil thoughts.

Let that sink in.

Jesus was not saying one could drink alcohol... He was addressing the eating of food with dirt on the hands.   

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I understand that.

He gave indication that back when he was younger (and, the reading implied, saved) he saw drinking as sin.

Fast forward --- that has changed.

 

IF he didn't follow or trust a "drunkard" Christ then, and changed to a different Christ. Was he not saved then, did he lose it, or is he saved and deceived now.

 

-------- hey HoS ----- if I misunderstood and you were alcohol friendly at the supposed time of conversion SPEAK UP NOW, don't sit in the corner and watch (if you're even still around)!

In answer to your question, I grew up essentially being taught and assuming that the Scriptures forbad the usage of alcohol period.  My views did not change on that until about 8-10 years ago, when researching various Scriptures for myself.  I was saved at the age of ten.  I hardly knew what alcohol was at that age....led a very "sheltered" (in a good way) life as a child.....Thus, when I was saved, I believed that all alcohol usage was a sin. 

 

  I like Online Baptist....and don't WANT to cease participation.  But, I have a hard time accepting that there is no rule against publically casting doubt upon and questioning another's salvation.......(except they blatantly preach heresy about the gospel of course).  This is a good board all things told, and full of informative and Christ-honoring posters.  But, I think I should sign off for a while until it is no longer commonplace for anyone and everyone who feels like it to cast dispersion upon and question another person's salvation.  It should (IMO be against the rules).......That's simply wicked.

 

I get it that the average I.F.B. takes a tee-totaling position and I would decidedly be in the minority on that.......but, this is the gazillionth time in only one thread I've been told that I worship a "different" or "false" Christ......that's patently insane.  Like CRAZY insane.  Actually, it's frankly rank heresy Theologically speaking,  The fact that this is done with impugnity is beyond my comprehension.  Truth is...there will be MANY people in heaven who had some VERY weird and Theologically awkward and quite mistaken views...I mean REALLY WEIRD ideas.  Will they be wrong? yeah....but the gospel isn't complicated, and it doesn't demand Perfect Theological perfection.  It demands a sinner to humble himself and cry for mercy to an Almighty God and Plead the Blood of Christ.....that's it, actually.  That's all.  If the malefactor on the cross gets in........I can guess that someone who believes the Scriptures but doesn't believe that the Scriptures COMMAND complete abstinence in alcohol (they don't) can also worm in by the skin of their teeth as well.  It's not like I'm advocating an un-heard of and historically un-precedented view here...........

BY FAR...the vast bulk of historical Christianity holds MY view, and not the other.  Post-modern (uniquely American) tee-totaling Theology is quite the modern construct, it has little historical precedent at all. 

 

I'm being consigned to hell along with Cotton Mather, John Knox, George Washington, Martin Luther, Savonarola, C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias, William Lane Craig, G. Campbell Morgan, Benjamin B. Warfield, Malcolm Muggeridge, Philip Melancthon, Jonathan Edwards, R.C. Sproul, D. James Kennedy (<---who looks eerily too much like Mr. Rogers) I suppose I could go on.........and that, only because we maintain that complete abstention (although perfectly encouraged Scripturally) is not a Biblical command.  That's wrong........It's HERETICAL.

Edited by Heir of Salvation

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Quite a contentious topic...and quite a bit of acrimony amongst folks who call themselves brothers in Christ.  *sigh*  Do we not realize how we dishonor Christ when we speak in the manner some have on here (fool, liar, extremist, etc)?  I guess not.  I am all for a hearty debate (as anyone who has been on here for a while can attest to), but when discussing what scripture does or does not say regarding a topic turns into a "discussion" (ha!) where the scriptural principle of watching our words is ignored, it's time to say nighty-night.

 

FWIW - if a person is born again, he or she is born again.  Period.  Drinking does not cause one to lose one's salvation, anymore than any other sin does.  It can, however, impede one's Christian growth, testimony, and witness.  Especially when God says it is not wise...

 

However, calling each other names, all in the name of defending scripture, is ungodly.  So, after 20 pages (much of which was contentious nonsense), this thread is now closed.

 

:threadlockedbc5:

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Quite a contentious topic...and quite a bit of acrimony amongst folks who call themselves brothers in Christ.  *sigh*  Do we not realize how we dishonor Christ when we speak in the manner some have on here (fool, liar, extremist, etc)?  I guess not.  I am all for a hearty debate (as anyone who has been on here for a while can attest to), but when discussing what scripture does or does not say regarding a topic turns into a "discussion" (ha!) where the scriptural principle of watching our words is ignored, it's time to say nighty-night.

 

FWIW - if a person is born again, he or she is born again.  Period.  Drinking does not cause one to lose one's salvation, anymore than any other sin does.  It can, however, impede one's Christian growth, testimony, and witness.  Especially when God says it is not wise...

 

However, calling each other names, all in the name of defending scripture, is ungodly.  So, after 20 pages (much of which was contentious nonsense), this thread is now closed.

 

:threadlockedbc5:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Put away your pad lock, everthing is just fine here.

 

You don't decide that, TGL.  This thread is locked and stays locked.

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