Wondering

[Revelation3:20]

1Tim115, I read what you said, but please clarify something for me. It sounds like you are telling me:
We have to have Faith to have salvation AND we can not rebel (sin) against God.

If so, then we are almost on the same page!

You misunderstand him, but he can clarify. :smile

I've also heard that: Once a person is saved and has faith, that person can sin in every way possible and God doesn't see or recognize their sins. All God sees is Jesus. (A Once saved ALWAYS saved belief.)

That is the truth. Do you understand the principle of a substitute? Christ was the substitute for those who believe on him. He paid all our debt of sin. Since Christ was perfectly righteous and pure his blood is of measureless value and is enough to cover any and all sin. Our salvation is based on him. The only way your position would make sense is if the blood of Christ was limited in power, and we possessed the ability to earn our way to heaven. In that case Christ died a pointless death. I cannot understand how anyone could read the bible and believe in salvation by works. The book of Romans is in large part dedicated to refuting that grievous and fatal error. The whole of scripture teaches that God is so holy that our best works in the flesh are tainted and repulsive before him. Bringing your works to God for justification is exactly like what Cain did, and God cannot accept that any more than he could accept Cains offering. It just isn't good enough. Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 3:19 -28 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You can't reconcile Gods word with catholicism.

[Julie L]

I cannot understand how anyone could read the bible and believe in salvation by works

Keep in mind Catholicism believes in "salvation through God's Grace alone"
and NOT salvation by works.

Also, Catholicism divides "works" into 3 groups:
1. Sinful works: sins or anything done only for your benefit and not for Christ. ie: working in a soup kitchen to make yourself look good in front of your neighbors.

2. Works of the Law: Like the bible clearly says no work of the law can save you. ie: circumcision, animal sacrifices, food offerings, ritual hand washing. Works of the Law aren't sinful, after all they helped God's people in the OT, but we are no longer under these laws.

3. Good Works: Anything that a believer "does" that the NT says we must "do"

Lets look as some scripture that I believe supports the fact the the bible does teach us that we need "good works":

1 Cor 13:13, "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Under a Sola Fide theology, that verse does not make sense. If salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and the only way we can achieve it is through faith alone, then shouldn't faith be greater than love? If love is greater than faith, how can anyone say we are saved by faith alone?

Gal 5:6, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through LOVE." Again we see love is necessary for salvation, and that faith "works" through love. Faith and works, just as Catholicism teaches.

1 Jn 3:23-24, "And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us. All who keep His commandments abide in Him and He in them..." We have to believe (faith) and love one another (works). And remember, this is His commandment, not a suggestion, it is not optional.

Mt 6:15, "...but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Can a person be saved if their sins are not forgiven? no. Is forgiving sins of others a work or an act of faith? I believe to forgive, is a work. If our sins are not forgiven, we can not be saved. Which means we can not be saved if we do not forgive others.

Mt 7:21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES the will of my Father..."

Lk 9:23, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up His cross daily and follow me." Where is Jesus if not in Heaven? If we want to follow Jesus, we have to DO something: 1- deny ourselves (a work), 2- take up our cross daily (many works)

Mt 19:16-17, "And behold, one came up to [Jesus] saying, 'Teacher, what GOOD DEED must I do to have eternal life?...'If you would enter life [Jesus said], keep the commandments.'" The only time Jesus is directly asked the question about what a person must DO to have eternal life, and what does He say? Believe in Me?, Have Faith in Me? You can do no deeds to inherit eternal life? No. Jesus said, "Keep the commandments." (works)

Ephesians 2:10 points out that God has ordained GOOD WORKS for us beforehand, that we should walk in them. God has ordained that we do good works that He has prepared for us to do. It is His will that we do them. The question is: What if we don't do them? Are we still saved? Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the WILL of My Father Who is in Heaven." If God's will is to do good works, then we better do them right?

[Revelation3:20]

Keep in mind Catholicism believes in "salvation through God's Grace alone"
and NOT salvation by works.

That isn't true, otherwise you wouldn't keep adding works to grace for salvation.

Also, Catholicism divides "works" into 3 groups:
1. Sinful works: sins or anything done only for your benefit and not for Christ. ie: working in a soup kitchen to make yourself look good in front of your neighbors.

2. Works of the Law: Like the bible clearly says no work of the law can save you. ie: circumcision, animal sacrifices, food offerings, ritual hand washing. Works of the Law aren't sinful, after all they helped God's people in the OT, but we are no longer under these laws.

3. Good Works: Anything that a believer "does" that the NT says we must "do"

I would agree with those, except I would say that any work done for salvation becomes a "work of the law" and is sinful, while I would say what you call "works of the law" are the ceremonial laws and I would agree with what you say about them.

1 Cor 13:13, "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Under a Sola Fide theology, that verse does not make sense. If salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and the only way we can achieve it is through faith alone, then shouldn't faith be greater than love? If love is greater than faith, how can anyone say we are saved by faith alone?

Gal 5:6, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through LOVE." Again we see love is necessary for salvation, and that faith "works" through love. Faith and works, just as Catholicism teaches.

1 Jn 3:23-24, "And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us. All who keep His commandments abide in Him and He in them..." We have to believe (faith) and love one another (works). And remember, this is His commandment, not a suggestion, it is not optional.

The ability to love God is a byproduct of our faith in God and that ability is given after we believe on Christ.

"Romans 5:5--10 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

"1 Corinthians 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him."

Of course love is indeed very important, and a true Christian will have it, but you are confusing the fruit of salvation with salvation itself. Gal 5:6 which you quote is a prime example of that. It says the work of faith, or byproduct if you will, is love.

Mt 6:15, "...but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Can a person be saved if their sins are not forgiven? no. Is forgiving sins of others a work or an act of faith? I believe to forgive, is a work. If our sins are not forgiven, we can not be saved. Which means we can not be saved if we do not forgive others.

You are mistaken. There are different levels of forgiveness. On the one hand believers are forgiven and justified at the moment of salvation for every sin they have or will commit because of Christ. On the other hand if they choose to sin against God and do not repent they will suffer chastening in this life because they are disobedient children. That is what Mt 6:15 is talking about.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This passage explains that.

Mt 7:21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES the will of my Father..."

That verse is answered by this one:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Lk 9:23, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up His cross daily and follow me." Where is Jesus if not in Heaven? If we want to follow Jesus, we have to DO something: 1- deny ourselves (a work), 2- take up our cross daily (many works)

This verse is speaking of the kind of life a believer must live to be following Christ. Many Christians are not following Christ, but they are still Christians.

As the holy scriptures say:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Once a child of God and saved through Christ the believer will be eternally secure not because he is not holding on to God but because the Lord is holding on to him.

Mt 19:16-17, "And behold, one came up to [Jesus] saying, 'Teacher, what GOOD DEED must I do to have eternal life?...'If you would enter life [Jesus said], keep the commandments.'" The only time Jesus is directly asked the question about what a person must DO to have eternal life, and what does He say? Believe in Me?, Have Faith in Me? You can do no deeds to inherit eternal life? No. Jesus said, "Keep the commandments." (works)

You should study that passage more. :smile

Mt 19:16-22 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

First look at the young mans view of Jesus. He called him "Good Master" but he did not understand Jesus was God so Jesus asked him why he called him "good". The young man was not ready to be saved because he thought salvation was by works which is why he said "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?". Therefore Jesus went to him on his own ground and told him to keep the commandments(impossible). He then asked Jesus which ones so Jesus listed a few of the ten commandments. The young man was blinded enough in his self righteousness that he believed that he had kept these "from his youth up" yet he knew he was still lacking something. So, rather than correct him Jesus then told him to sell everything and give to the poor because he knew this young mans area of greatest weakness was his possessions. When he told the young man that then the young man finally saw that he was not keeping the law as he had thought. So he went away sorrowful because his whole system of belief that he could obtain salvation by his works had been shattered and he realized he was a sinner. Realizing your a sinner is needful before you can ever hope to believe on Jesus for salvation and Jesus was showing him he was a sinner when he had thought he was pretty good.

Ephesians 2:10 points out that God has ordained GOOD WORKS for us beforehand, that we should walk in them. God has ordained that we do good works that He has prepared for us to do. It is His will that we do them. The question is: What if we don't do them? Are we still saved? Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the WILL of My Father Who is in Heaven." If God's will is to do good works, then we better do them right?

God certainly intends for believers to do good works, but not for salvation.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Gods will first of all is for people to believe on him, then they are preserved in Jesus Christ by the power of God regardless of their works. Those who call him Lord but have never trusted in him alone for salvation but add works to grace(catholics for example) are among those that will be told to depart from him because he never knew them. Note he says "I NEVER KNEW YOU" not "I forgot who you are". That passage you quote could not be much more clear that God was not impressed by these peoples works which were done in his name even though they thought he should be.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If a person knows God they have eternal life. If the believer has eternal life it cannot be lost or else it would not be eternal, it would be conditional. :smile

[Julie L]

1 Cor 13:13, "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Under a Sola Fide theology, that verse does not make sense. If salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and the only way we can achieve it is through faith alone, then shouldn't faith be greater than love? If love is greater than faith, how can anyone say we are saved by faith alone?

And this one?
Do you have a quote that shows Love is really not greater than Faith?

[trc123]

And this one?
Do you have a quote that shows Love is really not greater than Faith?

I'm thinking that the love of Christ (for the Father and for humanity) which caused him to sacrifice himself on the cross so that we could exercise faith in his death, burial and resurrection may be the greatest of all......not sure....but it makes sense to me....

Peace!

[Revelation3:20]

And this one?
Do you have a quote that shows Love is really not greater than Faith?

No, and we don't "achieve" salvation either, we believe on Christ and know that he has achieved it for us.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God had to love us before we could ever love him or have faith in him. Believers are saved by grace through faith[bible]Ephesians 2:8-9[/bible]. Grace is unmerited favor, and that unmerited favor comes from the love of God. That is Gods part and Gods part is far greater than our part considering we were his enemies when he died for us out of love. Without that great love of God Christ would not have died for us and no one could be saved. Our only part is to believe on him and allow him to do for us what he would like to do for everyone. Now after we believe on him he also gives us the ability to love but we are not even able to truly do that until after we believe. Again, the ability to love is a gift we receive because we believe on him but it is not something we do to earn salvation. It is a fruit of the Spirit and thus an evidence of the work of the Spirit in our lives.

[John81]

Bingo.
But do you know why?
I believe I need Faith to have salvation. That's a given.
I believe I will be judge by my actions.
Just like Satan was judged by his actions. I believe God, who is the same now as when he judged Satan, will also judge me by my actions. My actions therefore can send me off to eternal punishment OR eternal life.

Which actions specifically? I believe God will ask me if:
1 - if I fed the hungry
2 - if I gave drink to the thirsty
3 - if I welcomed strangers
4 - if I clothed the naked
5 - if I took care of the ill
6 - if I visited those in prison

I'm sure this sounds familiar to you. Matthew 26: 31-46 Which I believe details how Jesus will separate the saved from the unsaved. Note of course that no where in these verses does Jesus ask "did you have faith?" I believe that's because to have Faith in Jesus is a given. None the less, to have Faith, did not make the list.

The only "action" that will determine whether we receive eternal punishment or eternal life is the "action" we take with regards to rejecting or accepting Christ as our Saviour.

Those six things you listed are things which should flow out of being born again in Christ and not things that must be performed in order to have eternal life.

Our actions in this life after we come to Christ will determine our rewards in heaven, not whether we get there or not.

One thing to consider is that a heart truly transformed by Christ will hate sin and love holiness. The longer one lives the more one should hate sin and love holiness and live accordingly.

This is in contrast to those who proclaim to be Christians yet don't have Christ in their hearts and their lives example this by their lack of hate for sin in their lives and their lack of growing in personal holiness.

Being a true Christian one will have the Holy Ghost within them. It's the Holy Ghost which will guide them to be about the business of the Father. Doing "good works" is something that stems from being in Christ, not something we determine to do of our own accord.

A wicked man can give food to the hungry, water to the thristy and other seemingly good works but without being in Christ his "good works" are nothing but filthy rags in the sight of God and will not save him from eternal punishment.

We are saved by grace throught faith, not of works.

[Julie L]

1 - if I fed the hungry
2 - if I gave drink to the thirsty
3 - if I welcomed strangers
4 - if I clothed the naked
5 - if I took care of the ill
6 - if I visited those in prison

Can someone explain why Jesus is shown to be judging us by this list? Matthew 26:31-46

[Julie L]

The only "action" that will determine whether we receive eternal punishment or eternal life is the "action" we take with regards to rejecting or accepting Christ as our Saviour.

That is interesting that you call "faith" an action. That is very Catholic of you. We see faith as an action too.
-----------------------
If what you say is true, then why are Catholics judged as un-saved?

If you have faith and I have faith, then we are BOTH saved. Regardless if I have loved my husband, or feed my kids when they are hungry or thirsty, or take care of them when they are sick. If I have Faith... then I am saved!

Or is it seen as if my Faith in Jesus is somehow diminished by my love for my children?
If so, how?

How, does my love for my husband and children in ANY way diminish my belief in Christ redemptive work on the cross?

If God says to 'love' and I do... why is there a problem at all? Am I not following a direct command of Christ?

If I can "do" nothing to effect my salvation. But I have faith... then at the very most, when I die Christ will tell me "Thanks for having so much love for your children and taking care of them, but you didn't need to. Regardless, since you had faith in me, you are saved"

[John81]

Can someone explain why Jesus is shown to be judging us by this list? Matthew 26:31-46

Likely as not, we all know those who profess to be Christians but their lives don't give evidence they are true Christians. What Jesus is pointing out is that those who are truly His will be changed people, by the transforming power of the Holy Ghost in their lives they will be about the Fathers business. They will care for others as Christ did, as the Apostles gave example of.

This is similar to the story of the Good Samaritan. Supposedly righteous Jews (thinking they were right with God) passed the man in need of help without providing him with any. Then comes along a Samaritan (one the supposedly righteous Jews would have viewed as lost) and this "lost" Samaritan shows his true heart by helping the man in need.

What it comes down to is that we can all think and profess to be Christians, but if we truly are Christians then our hearts, lives and actions will reflect this.

[ptwild]

If I can "do" nothing to effect my salvation. But I have faith... then at the very most, when I die Christ will tell me "Thanks for having so much love for your children and taking care of them, but you didn't need to. Regardless, since you had faith in me, you are saved"

Julie, I believe this is probably close to how it will go.

[John81]

If what you say is true, then why are Catholics judged as un-saved?

If you have faith and I have faith, then we are BOTH saved. Regardless if I have loved my husband, or feed my kids when they are hungry or thirsty, or take care of them when they are sick. If I have Faith... then I am saved!

Or is it seen as if my Faith in Jesus is somehow diminished by my love for my children?
If so, how?

How, does my love for my husband and children in ANY way diminish my belief in Christ redemptive work on the cross?

If God says to 'love' and I do... why is there a problem at all? Am I not following a direct command of Christ?

If I can "do" nothing to effect my salvation. But I have faith... then at the very most, when I die Christ will tell me "Thanks for having so much love for your children and taking care of them, but you didn't need to. Regardless, since you had faith in me, you are saved"

Salvation is matter of trusting fully in Christ alone. Our love for others has nothing to do with salvation but those who are saved will have a heart of love. The more they allow the Holy Ghost to guide them in the Word, the more they will seek to live according to the Word of God and this will, in part, be evidenced by their love for others.

The Word of God is clear, we are to love our spouses, children and others. The Word of God is equally clear that this love has NOTHING to do with salvation.

The major problem with Catholic teaching is that something is continually added to the Gospel. Christ says we must be born again in Him, accepting Him by faith and trusting in His finished work for our salvation. Nothing else! However, Catholic teaching adds various works to the mix and that's what Scripture calls "another Gospel which is no Gospel at all".

A lost person can love their family and yet they are lost. Unless we trust in Christ and Christ alone, we are yet lost.

[1Timothy115]

I have been busy for several days. I'm afraid I'll have to go back to that work. This will take me time to answer but here it is, then I have to go elsewhere:

1Tim115, I read what you said, but please clarify something for me. It sounds like you are telling me: We have to have Faith to have salvation AND we can not rebel (sin) against God.
If so, then we are almost on the same page!.

Nope, drop the conjunction "AND" above. As far as sin, when saved, we won't want to sin but, we still have the sinful flesh present with us.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God doesn't always do math like you or I. We err when we try to add to the finite.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying because I have heard over the years several different explanations. Such as: Once a person is saved and has faith, they can no longer sin or rebel against God. (which I don't agree with because that would mean God takes away a believers "free will')
I've also heard that: Once a person is saved and has faith, that person can sin in every way possible and God doesn't see or recognize their sins. All God sees is Jesus. (A Once saved ALWAYS saved belief.)

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Julie's comment is all about faith+works salvation,

Bingo.
But do you know why?
I believe I need Faith to have salvation. That's a given.
I believe I will be judge by my actions.
Just like Satan was judged by his actions. I believe God, who is the same now as when he judged Satan, will also judge me by my actions. My actions therefore can send me off to eternal punishment OR eternal life.

Which actions specifically? I believe God will ask me if:
1 - if I fed the hungry
2 - if I gave drink to the thirsty
3 - if I welcomed strangers
4 - if I clothed the naked
5 - if I took care of the ill
6 - if I visited those in prison

I'm sure this sounds familiar to you. Matthew 26: 31-46 Which I believe details how Jesus will separate the saved from the unsaved. Note of course that no where in these verses does Jesus ask "did you have faith?" I believe that's because to have Faith in Jesus is a given.

First, it was't ptwild who recognized your err in math, it was me

Second, yes Julie, I know why. You said you had trouble understanding faith. I had hoped I made that clear to you by illustration and by the word of God. You can not justify yourself before a Holy God.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Third, yes Christ will judge the things done in the body.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I don?t see here where I?m told I am not saved because I didn?t work. I believe the saved will want to please Christ and keep his commandments and do good works. But those works have nothing to do with salvation.

It?s Matthew 25 not 26. You may notice that before any judgment is levied by Christ the sheep are separated and put to the right hand of God. Then the goats are separated to the left hand; afterward, the judgment.

None the less' date=' to have Faith, did not make the list. [/quote']
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think you missed something in the Bible. Faith and belief are so predominant in the scriptures, it?s similar to what you say, ?That's a given.? So, obvious it doesn?t need inclusion on any list. So simple, it can be passed over by those who would add the law to it. How did Jesus and Paul put it?

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It?s so simple, don?t attempt to complicate it.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

So simple, it can be overlooked by any who would look for or require a loud pronouncement, pomp or ceremony, or self-righteous requirement. Although God can use any means to call us to him, mostly it?s lowly and meek and we must be attentive or again, we miss it.

1 Kings 19:11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
1 Kings 19:12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

[Guest Guest]

Excuse me, ma'am, but, as a Catholic, you believe the Sacraments to be salvific, correct?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

[Julie L]

Excuse me, ma'am, but, as a Catholic, you believe the Sacraments to be salvific, correct?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Good question. :smile Actually, there are 7 Sacraments that the Catholic church believes in. Only Baptism is linked to salvation because it is specifically mentioned in the bible.
(Keep in mind there are 3 types of baptism)

Here are some quotes that the Church uses to explain its view:

"...God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,..." (2 Peter 3:20-21)

"verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (john 3:5) "water and of the Spirit" symbolizes baptism, it has to, as soon as Jesus is done talking about this, in verse 22 it says He and the disciples go out and baptize. So the surrounding context is baptism.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." (mark 16:16)
Note that it does not say "He that believeth shall be saved" but "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved" So Mark is telling us we must have belief and baptism. Everyone would agree that if you do not believe you will be damned. No one is refuting the second half of that sentence. :smile