David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

[Anon]

Obviously she is a little upset because she feels like her husband was disrespected. Perfectly normal reaction. Your out of line and your accusations are foolish. Chill.

Mostly my husband's pastor, which notice, I'm not even saying his name....thus, I feel Mr. Cloud was WAY out of line saying his name in a negative way. There is NO reason for anybody to publicly post an Independent Fundamental Baptist Pastor's name in a negative light, especially when they will admit the man is a "good Pastor" and has a "good church".

BTW thanks. :-)

[Guest]

Serious question here: Who? Never heard of them before, I don't think.

Fundamental Baptist Fellowship and Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International.

[Seth Doty]

There is NO reason for anybody to publicly post an Independent Fundamental Baptist Pastor's name in a negative light, especially when they will admit the man is a "good Pastor" and has a "good church".

You know I think we probably agree 98% of the time but I just don't see that. That kind of thinking is one of the things that eventually can lead to pastors going astray. If they are only exposed to people that either say they are wonderful or horrible it can become a temptation to believe the people who say they are wonderful and ignore all criticism. I have seen pastors like that and I am sure you have too. If someone says they consider so and so to still be a good pastor but think they have a fault in a given area what is the great harm in that? We say and believe pastors are just men and fallible so what is the problem with publicly naming names and saying you think so and so is wrong in a given area? You may or may not agree on a particular issue but why is it necessary to sweep all disagreements under the rug and publicly pretend that there is no disagreement until things get so bad they explode?

This is not referring to this situation in particular as I do not and never have read the "sword of the Lord" nor do I really know that "crowd" and thus have no opinion one way or another. More of a general observation. Edited June 20, 2012 by Seth-Doty

[JerryNumbers]

My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

To prove he stepped out of bounds would be to prove he was lying about this subject.

Excuse me, edited to add, or that he was wrong in the accusation made. Edited June 20, 2012 by Jerry80871852

[Anon]

You know I think we probably agree 98% of the time but I just don't see that. That kind of thinking is one of the things that eventually can lead to pastors going astray. If they are only exposed to people that either say they are wonderful or horrible it can become a temptation to believe the people who say they are wonderful and ignore all criticism. I have seen pastors like that and I am sure you have too. If someone says they consider so and so to still be a good pastor but think they have a fault in a given area what is the great harm in that? We say and believe pastors are just men and fallible so what is the problem with publicly naming names and saying you think so and so is wrong in a given area? You may or may not agree on a particular issue but why is it necessary to sweep all disagreements under the rug and publicly pretend that there is no disagreement until things get so bad they explode?

This is not referring to this situation in particular as I do not and never have read the "sword of the Lord" nor do I really know that "crowd" and thus have no opinion one way or another. More of a general observation.

I see what you are saying....but I guess, to me, if we are truly "Independent" and therefore we answer to God and to our own church. Why should it matter to me where a pastor in California or Mississippi or Iowa preaches or where they do not preach? Now if they run a Bible College I can kind of see it because pastors send their kids there...but just an independent church...????? I just don't like it. And I don't think what he said was fair, because I personally know one of the pastors and feel he did NOT deserve what was said. This particular pastor is without question extremely separated.

[Anon]

I should add I'm not a "Sword" follower.... but I do not think it concerns me what churches decide to be a part of their conference.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

I should add I'm not a "Sword" follower.... but I do not think it concerns me what churches decide to be a part of their conference.

It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.

[Anon]

It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.

So, honestly, because a certain pastor spoke at a Sword Conference, you would no longer have anything to do with that pastor or that church because of that?

If not...why, specifically?

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

So, honestly, because a certain pastor spoke at a Sword Conference, you would no longer have anything to do with that pastor or that church because of that?

If not...why, specifically?

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

[JerryNumbers]

I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.

Excellent. There are pastors that I would not let step behind my pulpit because of places they have preached & or been pastor of. A past friend, fellow pastor that I know quite well, or did know quite well, has been pastor of churches that hold to very questionable doctrine & practices. Because of that I would not have him in our church. Before he did theses things I would have had him.

In fact he, & another preacher, & I had a conversation about churches we would accept being pastor of before anyone of us 3 had been called. And he has done just what he said he would not do. It can be quite strange what a man will do when he is wanting to be a pastor of a church. Some times he will sacrifice truth in order to get a position.

[Anon]

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

I do not believe in easy believism or lack of repentance either. However if a pastor goes to the Sword Conference and preaches the CORRECT view of repentance or salvation...why would that be a bad thing? I think that is what the problem is here...if a man chooses to preach at the Sword Conference yet still maintains his integrity and his standards and his separation, then...????? Is it right that Cloud is discouraging churches from having this man in their pulpit?

I guess when it comes down to it, some here believe in secondary separation, and some do not. I have to say I don't necessarily believe in secondary separation. I do, if its extreme (for instance a pastor who were to preach in a Mormon church would be heretical and in that case, secondary separation is necessary) but I don't if its not extreme (for instance, if a pastor preaches in a church where the music is a little more contemporary than in that pastor's own church). In the first case, there is an obvious problem. In the second case, as long as the pastor himself and his own church is right, I don't see why its anybody's concern if he decides to preach in a church that may have a different music standard within the IFB circle (i.e. within reason...i.e. not talking rock concerts, here.). And I don't see a need to separate from the good pastor over that sort of thing.

The second example is, I feel, similar to what has happened in this particular article by David Cloud.

[JerryNumbers]

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.

It concerns me very much where a pastor has preached, or held the position of pastor, if he was to happen to preach in our church. In a previous post I stated a preacher that I knew quite well years ago had held the position of pastor in some very questionable churches, not knowing this I would have him, yet knowing it I would not allow him behind my pulpit.

I believe we are in an age, that many people firmly believes that you never to say one thing about a person unless its good. And If you can't say good about a person keep your mouth shut. Of course that comes from the liberals, for they want no one to warn anyone about them.

And of course, a person is not going to agree with anyone 100% of the time,

[Jerry]

I believe David Cloud is right in exposing anything by anyone that clearly does not line up with the Scriptures (ie. not referring to an area that is not spelled out clearly in the Bible); however, sometimes it seems some go too far with secondary separation. The Bible does not say separate from those preachers, etc. that do not separate from those who aren't separated. If a preacher is endorsing evil or personally involved in evil or compromise, they should be corrected/exposed - but if someone uses an opportunity to preach sound truth at a place that may be less than sound, that is between them and the Lord - as long as they are not personally involved in the compromise themselves or make it appear that they are endorsing all that goes on in that church, ministry, etc.

I admit sometimes it may be a fine line - but though the Scriptures do give us authority to expose evil, false teaching/teachers, sin, etc., I don't see where it gives us authority to blacklist a sound preacher who may have preached in a not so good place. What do we do with all those preachers and prophets in the Bible who preached where the Lord sent them, yet were places where evil was? Obviously God directed them to go there.

I had the opportunity to preach the Gospel at my Mom's memorial in a United Church - but I clearly preached the Gospel and the Saviour, and was rejected by my relatives afterwards. It was obvious to those there I did not agree with the teachings of the United Church and was in no way putting my stamp of approval on their church or religious beliefs.

Just some thoughts. Expose sin - but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Edited June 20, 2012 by Jerry

[JerryNumbers]

We've got the Old Testament, & we have the New Testament, & we have instructions of the new Testament Churches. And the new Testament Churches have to be guarded. And in the Old Testament there was not a New Testament Church to guard. But Israel did not guard them self very good, & they let those in that cased them to sin against God.

So separation has been in place throughout all time, & many of us are not very good at it.

I read that article several days before this topic was posted on here, I believe someone stated, all that were named were not called out, just a few of them.

And of course, everyone is not going to agree with every call Mr. Cloud makes, even among IFB Churches.

I suppose you were the one who made me aware of Mr. Cloud. I'm not sure how long I've been receiving his articles. I've disagree with some of his calls, but never made a big deal out of it calling for him to stop as some do, or even calling him names.

[1John2:15-17]

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

I agreed with your reply. Based on this, then Cloud's warnings about Lancaster Baptist (thier music), if accurate, should make one avoid it, no?

If a church whose preaching is spot on(one up here in NE Ohio) but yet seems to promote Mr Chappell by displaying his books and preaching at his conferences annually, would you say by Mr Cloud's guideline/warnings, that we should avoid this church as well? From what I know about this church the preaching, doctrine and music is right, but should one be wary of them potentially falling away because of what appears to be a loose association with Lancaster/Chappell?