Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Paul instructed the elders of the Church to work for their living. He did so himself as an example.

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Acts 20:33-35 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Why would Paul tell the elders to work with their hands so they could support the weak, if they were instead supposed to be the ones supported? The fact is, Paul told them to work. There is no getting around that.

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

The word "honour" here does not mean pay, although many falsely interpret it as such. It means just what it says... honor, respect.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
2 Thessalonians 3:7-8 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

The elders of the Church know they should work as Paul and other Apostles worked. Sadly, many would rather be supported than support.

[Anon]

Keep in mind Paul was single. He had no wife and children to support. On the other hand, in the qualifications of a pastor, it is clear that most pastors have a wife to support. Paul could do whatever he wanted, could suffer however he wanted. But Scripture is clear a man should support his wife and family. I get angry at churches who expect their pastor and pastor's family to live like paupers. "Things" should not be the focus of a pastor. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a pastor's family being supported, and/or having "things". Having a pastor's family dirt poor and barely able to eat is a horrible testimony for our God who owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Some people think its okay if they make $100,000/year and their pastor is barely putting food on the table. (Not our church, thankfully). And there was a good point made earlier that many pastors right now probably can't even FIND a job.....especially as most pastors have degrees in theology, and not much else. I suppose you advocate, too, that pastors get "normal" degrees and tack on theology as an afterthought, or not at all?

Calvary and PastorJ used a lot of Scripture. SFIC.....frankly its none of your business what other churches do for their pastors....its only your business to do right between you and God. Evidently you are, so that's fine. But do not tell other men of God that they are in sin when they clearly are not.

[Anon]

I wanted to add that I wanted to get a degree in medicine or science research. I could easily be making $100,000 a year right now. My ACT score wasn't perfect but it was good enough to get me into any number of good universities. But God called me to the ministry, and so now I do what I do. My husband also gave up a career in the medical field (repairing medical equipment) to go to Bible College. Between us, we could be making an easy six figures (up to $200,000/year) and be living quite nice.

For someone to say that we are wrong because our church takes care of us, less than half of what we could have made had God not called us to full time ministry (yet, we still both have college degress), is presumptuous and proud. You don't know how many days the devil has made me doubt or get discouraged about the ministry in this area (financial). (And yes, it is because I as a woman can be weak at times.) For you to say that being in the ministry for most IFB pastors who are working full time in the ministry and being supported by their church is wrong, makes me sick. Right now I have a sister and brother in law that are church planters...they are undersupported and trying to raise a large family, and they rarely have enough money to cover everything. But they do it for God.

Again.....we do sacrifice, in our own ways. Just because YOU aren't here watching us sacrifice doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And as someone mentioned above...it rarely works when a man sacrifices his FAMILY because he is constantly at work and/or church. Have seen it happen WAY too many times.

[John81]

Along these lines, our associate pastor was in pre-med at college when the Lord called him to be a pastor. Talk about a "pay cut"! But only in this lifetime, I'm sure it's a "pay increase" where eternity is concerned.

[Anon]

Along these lines, our associate pastor was in pre-med at college when the Lord called him to be a pastor. Talk about a "pay cut"! But only in this lifetime, I'm sure it's a "pay increase" where eternity is concerned.

Exactly...and that's not the problem...but to say he should be out working 50 hours per week at a factory and then putting another 30 hours into being a pastor is ridiculous, and unbiblical.

[John81]

Exactly...and that's not the problem...but to say he should be out working 50 hours per week at a factory and then putting another 30 hours into being a pastor is ridiculous, and unbiblical.

In the case of our church, it would also be impractical and virtually impossible. Our pastor and associate pastor both put in about 60-80 hours a week at church and on church related matters.

[Seth Doty]

I wanted to add that I wanted to get a degree in medicine or science research. I could easily be making $100,000 a year right now. My ACT score wasn't perfect but it was good enough to get me into any number of good universities. But God called me to the ministry, and so now I do what I do. My husband also gave up a career in the medical field (repairing medical equipment) to go to Bible College. Between us, we could be making an easy six figures (up to $200,000/year) and be living quite nice.

For someone to say that we are wrong because our church takes care of us, less than half of what we could have made had God not called us to full time ministry (yet, we still both have college degress), is presumptuous and proud. You don't know how many days the devil has made me doubt or get discouraged about the ministry in this area (financial). (And yes, it is because I as a woman can be weak at times.) For you to say that being in the ministry for most IFB pastors who are working full time in the ministry and being supported by their church is wrong, makes me sick. Right now I have a sister and brother in law that are church planters...they are undersupported and trying to raise a large family, and they rarely have enough money to cover everything. But they do it for God.

Again.....we do sacrifice, in our own ways. Just because YOU aren't here watching us sacrifice doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And as someone mentioned above...it rarely works when a man sacrifices his FAMILY because he is constantly at work and/or church. Have seen it happen WAY too many times.

I understand where your coming from but try not to let it get on your nerves too much. Stressing over it will not do you any good. It is what it is. I am sure you know the vast majority of IFB's do not see eye to eye with SFIC on this. :coolsmiley:

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Had Paul meant the elders were worthy of a salary, he would have used the work "opsonion" in 1 Timothy 5:17. "Opsonion" is the Greek word for wages. Paul did not use that word, he used the word "time", which means honor, respect.

It may or may not be my business how other Churches handle their pastors, but it is the pastor's responsibility to support himself and the weak, not the other way around according to the Word of God.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Anon]

It may or may not be my business how other Churches handle their pastors, but it is the pastor's responsibility to support himself and the weak, not the other way around according to the Word of God.

The pastor is supposed to "support himself and the weak" financially?

Really?

[Calvary]

Had Paul meant the elders were worthy of a salary, he would have used the work "opsonion" in 1 Timothy 5:17. "Opsonion" is the Greek word for wages. Paul did not use that word, he used the word "time", which means honor, respect.

It may or may not be my business how other Churches handle their pastors, but it is the pastor's responsibility to support himself and the weak, not the other way around according to the Word of God.

More slecetive authorities. You failed to present any evidence for the word "time". Any one reading this thread can open E-sword, use the KJV+ module and see that the word means the following:

G5092
τιμή
timē
tee-may'
From G5099; a value, that is, money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables; by analogy esteem (especially of the highest degree), or the dignity itself: - honour, precious, price, some.

Again SFIC, the scriptures do not support you false teaching that full time pastors are to all work their own secular jobs. You are reading into Acts 20 what you want it to say. It could just as easily be taken to mean that I should work like every one in the flock, cleaning the church, building the church, knocking the doors of my community. It simply means do not live a life of do as I say but not as I do.

1 Timothy 5 is a chapter that is absolutley about how to treat the people in the church. If a widow is worthy of HONOR and the context is about CARING for her PHYSICAL needs, then how can DOUBLE HONOR in the same passage, same chapter, same context be only esteem? You are a rank hypocrite and a false teacher and should be shunned by all on this board for your crooked paths that you teach. You deal dishonestly with passages, apply false conclusions, quote men instead of the Bible and everything else instead of simply saying, ya know, I guess I could be wrong on this.You have been proved wrong on this issue so many ways it is getting boring reading your cavils.

God bless,
Calvary

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The pastor is supposed to "support himself and the weak" financially?

Really?

Really. That's what the Word of God says. I have provided the verses that clearly show that to be true.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Sorry Calvary. But Paul clearly reveals it Acts and in Thessalonians that the elders are not supported by the Church.

He wouldn't tell Timothy the opposite. Honour in Timothy does not mean a salary no matter how much you wish it was.

[Anon]

Paul instructed the elders of the Church to work for their living. He did so himself as an example.

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Acts 20:33-35 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Why would Paul tell the elders to work with their hands so they could support the weak, if they were instead supposed to be the ones supported? The fact is, Paul told them to work. There is no getting around that.

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

The word "honour" here does not mean pay, although many falsely interpret it as such. It means just what it says... honor, respect.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
2 Thessalonians 3:7-8 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

The elders of the Church know they should work as Paul and other Apostles worked. Sadly, many would rather be supported than support.

So, in the first passage, Paul clearly states his necessities were met by others. The "laboring" is laboring for God. You're saying that knocking on doors, mowing the church lawn, making sermons, visiting people, doing funerals, and making phone calls is not work? So, you have to have a "real job" to be considered "working"? Now you're making up stuff.

Again, in the second passage, Paul says they ate bread, but they worked hard for it, so that it would not be "for nought" so they wouldn't be chargeable. He's saying, here, that yeah, he was supported by the church, but in return, he worked his tail end off for that church so that he would not be accused of taking their goods for nothing. He took their support, and in return, he gave labor. "Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought" is the same thing as saying to your kid, "I don't pay good money for your Christian schooling for nothing! I expect hard work!" It does not mean the parent does not pay for the school. It means they pay, but they want labor in return...so it is not "for nought".

That is the perfect example of church. The church pays the pastor to LABOR for that church. The pastor should work hard, so that the paycheck is not "for nought" and that he will not be chargeable (blameable) by the church.

Its a matter of simply understanding English grammar.

[Wilchbla]

Sorry Calvary. But Paul clearly reveals it Acts and in Thessalonians that the elders are not supported by the Church.

He wouldn't tell Timothy the opposite. Honour in Timothy does not mean a salary no matter how much you wish it was.

You really believe this nonsense? You have a problem with giving don't you?

[Anon]

You really believe this nonsense? You have a problem with giving don't you?

This is the conclusion I've come to.

He's ignoring plain English, and context, in the Scriptures, to avoid the idea of giving a pastor a salary, as if being a pastor is not "work".

And he still never told us where his parents in Libya got their financing, which kind of tells me that it was probably a special case that would be impossible for a normal missionary to achieve.