Men and Women appart

[Guest]

You do know that there are people who die before reaching adulthood or that live a long life as mentally disabled right?
If I believe in Jesus as my Lord and God and repent from Sin, what else am I supposed to do?

Careful, it appears you're growing a little sarcastic and demeaning with this comment. However, Jesus answers the question for you.


Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

My understanding of Ephesians is that it talks of the "why" but it doesn't specify the "how". As far as I know women are different and feel loved by different kinds of actions, so I usually ask them before trying to force them doing something they do not like.(Example... my bad sense of humour)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Maybe the example tie-in with Ephesians has me a little confused (scratch head)

I did not mean that it is...
...we agree, amen.

Charitable can mean going hiking to one person or giving money to another... that was what I was talking about.
The Bible is clear on the meaning of charity. That goes back to 1 Cor. 13. I have a hard time understanding the relationship of hiking and charity.

The passages you showed did not say that you should learn from men... but from the Bible. So if a man points to the Bible it is somehow different than if a woman points to the Bible?
No, it doesn't say anything about women either, that wasn't your question in this regard. However, the O.T. scriptures are fairly clear women weren't included as counselors (yes I know of the prophetesses in the O.T.). The Bible teaches us to use the wisdom of others who most likely have experience we do not, that is what's contained in the verses I gave. Again, the scriptures are clear about women teaching men or having spiritual authority over the man; it isn't to happen in Christian churches. Do you still have a problem with God telling you this? I hope you are not here under false pretenses because I enjoy a truthful discussion. The longer I see your comments the more it would appear you came to justify your own doctrine. I hope this is not the case. The preponderance of scripture from the Bible and all the brethren and sisters here at OB appear to be of one accord.

Welll... we do know that some of those were also females (at the very least the prophets)... why do you assume that all of them must be men from that Passage?
I don't assume they should all be men from the scripture above. I don't assume at all here. These scriptures are what the all-male offices do. For the fact of these offices being male I use these scriptures...

1 Timothy 3:1-13
Titus 1:6-11


Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Acts 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

I know there were devout women in Jerusalem who could have performed the ministration but they were told to chose men and men were chosen. Also, there were plenty of devout women worshiping Jesus before the cross and after, why didn't Jesus choose women as part of "the twelve?"

I don't think that passage defends the men only offices.

See above, Tim, Tit, Acts.

Or the leading of the Church by men. It talks about edifying the body of Christ... not leading it. Right?

You don't have this right, if you read both 1 Tim & 2 Tim. completly and in context you can't escape the fact they were to lead (exhorting and teaching) the church as under shepherds of our Lord Jesus Christ. The leading of God's man is through preaching, teaching, exhorting, defending against heresy, showing what is acceptable. There are attempts to define leaderships in other ways today but, they usually are secular in nature.


I just think that I assumed some things from your descriptions that maybe I shouldn't have. Probably the most pressing question that comes to mind is "so what?" but I don't want to seem rude.
I mean... my girlfriend obviously believes she is already saved. Even if I tell her that she is not following God's Word would that change anything? I cannot "make" her "unsaved"...
This applies to pretty much every other thing that one considers to be sin. I myself am a sinner and have sinned every day of my life... Who am I to tell someone they have misunderstood the Scripture? I question everything because by only Faith is in Christ... not my understanding of Him or if my relationship to Him is as good or better than some other. Who am I to judge? "The Lord is my judge"...
One in Christ,
D

Jesus christ, very God, will judge every one of us and we are responsible to the Lord to live by his word and grow in his nurture and admonition through his word.

I see in another post someone is talking to you about salvation. I don't recall seeing that discussion. If there is a question about your salvation you'll have a very difficult time understanding God's meaning without his Spirit.

edited: to add red and some thoughts. Edited March 14, 2012 by 1Tim115

[heartstrings]

@heartstrings
Hi...
I don't think you've been talking to me but thanks for the understanding. I am quite the skeptic and a lot of people don't understand why. If you have anything particular that you would like to ask me please go ahead.

Yes, I diverted my efforts to pointing out some of the others posters' incorrect handling of the Word of God but, I did answer one of your questions in my first post, with a Bible verse:

1Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Here is another similar to it

1 Corinthians 14:34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

My question has always been; Since IFB churches allow public "testimonies" by women in church, how are the above verses to be interpreted?

[John81]

Yes, I diverted my efforts to pointing out some of the others posters' incorrect handling of the Word of God but, I did answer one of your questions in my first post, with a Bible verse:

1Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Here is another similar to it

1 Corinthians 14:34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

My question has always been; Since IFB churches allow public "testimonies" by women in church, how are the above verses to be interpreted?

Good post, with one small correction. It should be noted that SOME IFB churches allow public "testimonies" by women in church, not all.

[swathdiver]

I mean... my girlfriend obviously believes she is already saved. Even if I tell her that she is not following God's Word would that change anything? I cannot "make" her "unsaved"...

Who am I to tell someone they have misunderstood the Scripture? Who am I to judge? "The Lord is my judge"...

This is heresy, an unscriptural view of judgement wildly popular with modern-charismatics. The Lord is very clear on how we're to judge ourselves and others.

[heartstrings]

Good post, with one small correction. It should be noted that SOME IFB churches allow public "testimonies" by women in church, not all.

Thanks for the correction. I should have said MY IFB church.

[John81]

This is heresy, an unscriptural view of judgement wildly popular with modern-charismatics. The Lord is very clear on how we're to judge ourselves and others.

That's true.

It doesn't matter whether or not one "believes" they are already saved or not, what matters is what the Word of God has to say about it. If a person doesn't care enough about someone they claim to love to help them be biblically sure of their salvation, then they really don't love them.

[John81]

Thanks for the correction. I should have said MY IFB church.

From what I've heard others state, women giving their testimonies is not teaching or usurping authority over man, and it's a specific time for such so not a matter of preaching time when there should be quiet.

[no name joe]

Women in ministry is a complicated matter. Scripture can be interpreted in different ways in this. For example, there are instances when women are deacons in the Bible, and other instances when women prophesy. Women were judges in the Old Testament and led the people of God. On the other hand, you have Paul's writings which seem to contradict that.

Furthermore, there is the question on how do we interpret Scripture. Some Scripture was written to a specific congregation to address a specific issue in that culture. The cultural application of that day may not make any sense today, but if you extract the universal principal, then that principal applies today, even though it may apply in a different way.

For example, Scripture tells us to greet one another with a holy kiss. In some culutres, that is the mode of greeting. Where I live, it is not. In fact, if I greeted a woman with a kiss on the cheek here, she might be offended, even though it is "commanded" in the Bible. That was a customary greeting of the day. Paul obviously does not mean in a culture where that is not the greeting, to give one another a kiss. On the contrary, the universal principal is to greet one another in the name of the Lord. Today that might look like a handshake, or greeting someone with God's peace. A friend from Albania greets fellow Albanians with a kiss, but that is not customary here.

Another passage says women are to keep their heads covered. Is that merely cultural? Probably so. The principal is to dress modestly and in a manner that does not draw attention to yourself. But that does not mean a woman must wear a hat or a shawl today.

Those are some examples. So the question is, when Paul addresses qualifications of ministers, does that apply to the culutre of the day? When Paul says pastors must be a "Husband of one wife" does that exclude women? In that day, women were no more than property and had no standing under the law. Today that is different. So it could be argued that that was relevant to the culture of the day, and that the universal principal is that a person must be faithful to his or her spouse to be a minister of the gospel. I am honestly not sure which way I lean on this, except that it should be left to the local church, and should not divide a local church.

[dskysmine]

Careful, it appears you're growing a little sarcastic and demeaning with this comment. However, Jesus answers the question for you.


Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I was addressing the "taking personal responsability" part of your argument... not the rest.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Maybe the example tie-in with Ephesians has me a little confused (scratch head)

I was talking about the specifics of "how" to love someone else. Love is a very rich word, but if you want to use it concretely in your day to day you have to get into the specifics.

...we agree, amen.

The Bible is clear on the meaning of charity. That goes back to 1 Cor. 13. I have a hard time understanding the relationship of hiking and charity.

As i said before, I was addressing the specifics. Concrete love... not just saying that I love someone but actually doing something about it.

No, it doesn't say anything about women either, that wasn't your question in this regard. However, the O.T. scriptures are fairly clear women weren't included as counselors (yes I know of the prophetesses in the O.T.). The Bible teaches us to use the wisdom of others who most likely have experience we do not, that is what's contained in the verses I gave. Again, the scriptures are clear about women teaching men or having spiritual authority over the man; it isn't to happen in Christian churches. Do you still have a problem with God telling you this? I hope you are not here under false pretenses because I enjoy a truthful discussion. The longer I see your comments the more it would appear you came to justify your own doctrine. I hope this is not the case. The preponderance of scripture from the Bible and all the brethren and sisters here at OB appear to be of one accord.

I didn't present any doctrine. I have simply questioned what you are teaching me.
I don't have a problem with the Words in the Bible. I have a problem with how people use them.
For example Luther said "If Satan can turn God's Word upside down and pervert the Scriptures, what will he do with my words -- or the words of others?"

I don't assume they should all be men from the scripture above. I don't assume at all here. These scriptures are what the all-male offices do. For the fact of these offices being male I use these scriptures...

1 Timothy 3:1-13
Titus 1:6-11

Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Acts 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

See above, Tim, Tit, Acts.

You don't have this right, if you read both 1 Tim & 2 Tim. completly and in context you can't escape the fact they were to lead (exhorting and teaching) the church as under shepherds of our Lord Jesus Christ. The leading of God's man is through preaching, teaching, exhorting, defending against heresy, showing what is acceptable. There are attempts to define leaderships in other ways today but, they usually are secular in nature.

I accept that those Churches could only have men as leaders, but nowadays there are no Apostles to lay hands on anyone... no appointments. We are discussing different things.

Jesus christ, very God, will judge every one of us and we are responsible to the Lord to live by his word and grow in his nurture and admonition through his word.

I see in another post someone is talking to you about salvation. I don't recall seeing that discussion. If there is a question about your salvation you'll have a very difficult time understanding God's meaning without his Spirit.

edited: to add red and some thoughts.

I know God will judge me... my own name tells me that. The matter of the fact is that "living by His Word" has been interpreted by many different Christians in many different ways... That is why I am asking so many questions.

You seem to like repetition in all these posts. As I said, context. Elsewhere you rebuked a member for his lack of proper English grammar in posting. From what you posted there, that would leave us to believe you understand basic English concepts, such as context.
As I pointed out in another thread, unless or until you are born again in Christ, these other issues are of little matter. If you gain some understanding of this matter but are yet lost when you die or Christ returns, you will spend eternity in hell.

Actually I hate repeating myself... it feels like I am losing time when I could be doing something better for my brethren.
Are you actually saying that in Matthew 5 Jesus is not instructing? Please oh please... explain why...

Yes, I diverted my efforts to pointing out some of the others posters' incorrect handling of the Word of God but, I did answer one of your questions in my first post, with a Bible verse:
1Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Here is another similar to it
1 Corinthians 14:34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
My question has always been; Since IFB churches allow public "testimonies" by women in church, how are the above verses to be interpreted?

Well.. I just started learning about Baptist Churches... and I still don't know exactly what is the difference between Baptists and IFB so I am afraid I cannot help you.
But thank you for the Passages.

This is heresy, an unscriptural view of judgement wildly popular with modern-charismatics. The Lord is very clear on how we're to judge ourselves and others.

So now she's not saved anymore? I'm confused...
Can you please explain what you mean?

One in Christ,
D

[swathdiver]

Another passage says women are to keep their heads covered.

This refers to having long hair, not short hair like a man. See "Bobbed Hair and Bossy Wives" by John R. Rice.

[swathdiver]

So now she's not saved anymore? I'm confused...
Can you please explain what you mean?

Not talking about your girlfriend at all. However, once saved, always saved! And then there are millions upon millions who profess Christ but were not born-again according the Scriptures.

My reply was in regards to pointing out your heretical view of judging others. Look up those favorite verses on judging others and read the whole passage.

[John81]

Women in ministry is a complicated matter. Scripture can be interpreted in different ways in this. For example, there are instances when women are deacons in the Bible, and other instances when women prophesy. Women were judges in the Old Testament and led the people of God. On the other hand, you have Paul's writings which seem to contradict that.

Furthermore, there is the question on how do we interpret Scripture. Some Scripture was written to a specific congregation to address a specific issue in that culture. The cultural application of that day may not make any sense today, but if you extract the universal principal, then that principal applies today, even though it may apply in a different way.

For example, Scripture tells us to greet one another with a holy kiss. In some culutres, that is the mode of greeting. Where I live, it is not. In fact, if I greeted a woman with a kiss on the cheek here, she might be offended, even though it is "commanded" in the Bible. That was a customary greeting of the day. Paul obviously does not mean in a culture where that is not the greeting, to give one another a kiss. On the contrary, the universal principal is to greet one another in the name of the Lord. Today that might look like a handshake, or greeting someone with God's peace. A friend from Albania greets fellow Albanians with a kiss, but that is not customary here.

Another passage says women are to keep their heads covered. Is that merely cultural? Probably so. The principal is to dress modestly and in a manner that does not draw attention to yourself. But that does not mean a woman must wear a hat or a shawl today.

Those are some examples. So the question is, when Paul addresses qualifications of ministers, does that apply to the culutre of the day? When Paul says pastors must be a "Husband of one wife" does that exclude women? In that day, women were no more than property and had no standing under the law. Today that is different. So it could be argued that that was relevant to the culture of the day, and that the universal principal is that a person must be faithful to his or her spouse to be a minister of the gospel. I am honestly not sure which way I lean on this, except that it should be left to the local church, and should not divide a local church.

No, there is nothing complicated about it at all. Scripture is very clear, only men are to hold positions of leadership. There is no "deaconess" and a female prophetess has nothing to do with and is not the same as a church leader.

The only way the clear teaching of First Timothy 3 can be seen as complicated nor not plain and simple to understand, is to ignore it and try to justify doing so by comparing apples to oranges.

[John81]

God’s Simple Plan of Salvation

My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?
God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.”
In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?
First, my friend, you must realize you are a sinner. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. “For the wages [payment] of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.
“ . . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. “ . . . He hath made Him [Jesus, Who knew no sin] to be sin for us . . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev. 17:11). “ . . . without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22).
“ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).
Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.
My friend, “God . . . commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the Cross.
In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”
Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Savior.
“But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12).
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).
Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.
Surely, you realize you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.
In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Just pray: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of Your merciful grace. Amen.”
Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!
God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.
You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.
If His plan is not perfectly clear, read this tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your soul is worth more than all the world.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.
God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth:

• Pray -- you talk to God.
• Read your Bible -- God talks to you.
• Witness -- you talk for God.
  

You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).
Copyright: Robert Ford Porter, 1991

[Guest]

I don't assume they should all be men from the scripture above. I don't assume at all here. These scriptures are what the all-male offices do. For the fact of these offices being male I use these scriptures...

1 Timothy 3:1-13
Titus 1:6-11

Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Acts 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

See above, Tim, Tit, Acts.

You don't have this right, if you read both 1 Tim & 2 Tim. completly and in context you can't escape the fact they were to lead (exhorting and teaching) the church as under shepherds of our Lord Jesus Christ. The leading of God's man is through preaching, teaching, exhorting, defending against heresy, showing what is acceptable. There are attempts to define leaderships in other ways today but, they usually are secular in nature.

I accept that those Churches could only have men as leaders, but nowadays there are no Apostles to lay hands on anyone... no appointments. We are discussing different things.

I'm going to narrow my reply even further. You sound as if you may believe the word of God has changed. I'll leave you with this for now. Why do you say nowadays there are no Apostles?

Also, there are still men.

One in Christ,
D

[Wilchbla]

Talk about grammar police and being uptight about these thing, what does "appart" mean?