Who I am and what I am looking for...

[John81]

It seems I have to make it even simpler:

So the first premise is: If one responds to Scripture (whatever you imply by that), one is (or may be) born again.

Which makes second premise being: If one is to be able to gain understanding of it one requires the Holy Spirit.
These premises do not lead to a conclusion.

In your first premise you assume that responding to Scripture does not require understanding of it. Then the question arising is: how is one supposed to respond to Scripture without understanding it?
The second premise is even against one of your own statements: "Understanding the message doesn't mean one is born again". Then why would one want the Holy Spirit to understand it (as you assert)?

Now do you see why your argument does not make sense to me?
One in Christ,
D

Again, that's not what I said.

Follow closely

1. The salvation message in Scripture is clear to all. I never said that all of Scripture is clear to anyone. The salvation message, how one is saved, born again, is clear to all.

2. If one is born again in Christ, then the Holy Spirit indwells them and opens up the rest of Scripture to them.

From your questioning here it would seem you are yet lost and in need of salvation. Until and unless you settle that, there is no point in concerning yourself with other matters.

[dskysmine]

Again, that's not what I said.

Follow closely

1. The salvation message in Scripture is clear to all. I never said that all of Scripture is clear to anyone. The salvation message, how one is saved, born again, is clear to all.

2. If one is born again in Christ, then the Holy Spirit indwells them and opens up the rest of Scripture to them.

From your questioning here it would seem you are yet lost and in need of salvation. Until and unless you settle that, there is no point in concerning yourself with other matters.

In case you didn't notice I rephrased your argument because you didn't use the formal norms for logic arguments...
That "1st premise" is not a premise at all.. it already implies the conclusion. But I think I understand now where you are going.
So, before one "chooses" a Church one must be born again... and then he/she will be able to choose a Church.
This pretty much debases all differences between Churches because one would then be able to reach salvation without actually going to a Church. Right?
One in Christ,
D

[John81]

Human logic is not important here. What is important is what God says.

A church isn't necessary for salvation. What is necessary is acknowledging that we are sinners destined for hell, in need of a Saviour. The only Saviour is Christ Jesus. We must repent of our sins, accepting what God says about this, and accept that the blood of Christ is the only means of cleansing us of our sins. This is done by grace through faith.

If you are unwilling to be born again in Christ, and Christ Himself said "ye must be born again", then there is little point in discussing other matters any more than there is a point to adjusting your chair on a sinking ship.

[swathdiver]

With no disrespect:
Trust God and hope for the best...=D
Is that a hypothetical scenario? Because if it is, it sounds really implausible...

Yes, this scenario is hypothetical but does happen everyday around the world.


So if I understand you correctly, at this late stage in my life, I have no assurance of eternal life in heaven? How do I "trust" God? Isn't "hope(ing) for the best" like making a wish?

Daniel, if you died today, would you go to heaven? Why?

[OLD fashioned preacher]

There is not a church on the face of the Earth that can forgive you of your sins; Jn 14:6 Jesus made it clear that He is THE way (not Mohammed, a priest, a preacher, or any other); Mt 7 makes it clear that sincerity is not sufficient in itself.

I found it interesting that when I said that I hope your use of the word "girlfriend" didn't imply fornication you didn't address that -- I personally would have made sure there was no room for misunderstanding here if it were myself and a young lady represented by the term.

[John81]

God’s Simple Plan of Salvation

My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?
God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.”
In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?
First, my friend, you must realize you are a sinner. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. “For the wages [payment] of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.
“ . . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. “ . . . He hath made Him [Jesus, Who knew no sin] to be sin for us . . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev. 17:11). “ . . . without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22).
“ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).
Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.
My friend, “God . . . commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the Cross.
In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”
Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Savior.
“But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12).
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).
Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.
Surely, you realize you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.
In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Just pray: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of Your merciful grace. Amen.”
Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!
God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.
You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.
If His plan is not perfectly clear, read this tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your soul is worth more than all the world.
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).
Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.
God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth:

• Pray -- you talk to God.
• Read your Bible -- God talks to you.
• Witness -- you talk for God.
  

You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).
Copyright: Robert Ford Porter, 1991

[dskysmine]

@John81,
I was born again...
I believe in One God, my Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth,
The Lord Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, Light of My life, God with the Father, who for my salvation came to Earth and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit through a Virgin, and for my Salvation was Crucified and Ressurected on the third day, that He will come to Judge living and dead, and that His Kingdom will be eternal.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, Lord of life, that is glorified with the Father and Son.

@swathdiver,
I have Faith in the Lord, but He will Judge me and tell me if I loved Him or not... and I have hope that He will say "Come".
I cannot confuse "wishing" with "hope". "wishing" is desiring... a flesh desire... "hoping" is a belief... a spiritual belief.
If I died today I would die in peace with my hope on the Lord.
Your scenario does not happen every day... but even if it did happen to me I would ask for the Holy Spirit to take my mouth and reassure this person with the words that He wants... not mine. I don't know what I would say.

@OLD fashioned
I didn't ask for a Church to forgive my sins... I asked which is the True Church.
I appreciate your preoccupation but I didn't feel like I needed to clarify what me and my girlfriend do or do not do to a forum full of strangers.
But if you are that curious... no... we want to wait till marriage. I called her my girlfriend because there is no other english term for "pre-fiancé".
We want to get married, I just haven't yet bought a ring to give her, so officially we are not engaged. The issue I had was that because I don't go to a Baptist Church I only usually get information from her about her Church and I wanted to learn a little more from other people. She does know I am in this Forum but she also warned me that I might find a lot of hostility... apparently she was correct (Not necessarily from you personally).

One in Christ,
D

[swathdiver]

@John81,
I was born again...

So why didn't you share that event with us Daniel? Edited March 15, 2012 by swathdiver

[dskysmine]

So why didn't you share that event with us Daniel?

What event?
As far as I remember I have always believed the same... Jesus acompanied my life. I have learned little by little... not in one swoop moment.
What I meant with "I was born again" is that I was baptized and that God has always helped me with His infinite Grace during my life.
I didn't share details about my baptism because it relates to me not wanting to reveal anything about my denomination.

[swathdiver]

What event?
As far as I remember I have always believed the same... Jesus acompanied my life. I have learned little by little... not in one swoop moment.
What I meant with "I was born again" is that I was baptized and that God has always helped me with His infinite Grace during my life.
I didn't share details about my baptism because it relates to me not wanting to reveal anything about my denomination.

Well there it is and out in the open. This is exactly what I and others have suspected for several days Daniel.

You have not been born-again Scripturally. In addition, all man-made religions teach that "works" are the way to eternal life. Such a view is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

By your own admission you are one of the tens of millions Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 7:21-23, the false converts, those who never made repentance towards God and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

I'll have to continue this later as I have an appointment to go to.

Daniel, I'll be praying for your salvation and praying that you understand what the Scriptures, not a church, says about it. For if you died today, you'd go to hell for all eternity.

[dskysmine]

I followed Christ all of my life. I find it hard to believe I am not born again because someone says so.
If I was born of the water and the Spirit what "must" I do more?

[Old Regular]

Wow! I never never followed God all of my life and I'm not sure that anyone else can say that, because as it is written in John 3:19:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil

I was 23 years old filled with evil deeds and loving darkness before I became obedient to the God's heavenly call. God showed me the worst human being I had ever seen and it was me. I became burdened with the sins I had committed and Godly sorrow set up in me and I had to repent for the sins I had committed against God. I had to pray from the heart not the lips. God taught me how to pray a prayer that was pleasing to him and when I came to the end of my strength and my works became as filthy rages in His sight God worked a work in me that no man could work! He reached down and touchedme and baptized me with his spirit. Becoming a Christian is more than giving lip service to God Edited March 15, 2012 by Old Regular

[dskysmine]

Wow! I never never followed God all of my life and I'm not sure that anyone else can say that, because as it is written in John 3:19:



I was 23 years old filled with evil deeds and loving darkness before I became obedient to the God's heavenly call. God showed me the worst human being I had ever seen and it was me. I became burdened with the sins I had committed and Godly sorrow set up in me and I had to repent for the sins I had committed against God. I had to pray from the heart not the lips. God taught me how to pray a prayer that was pleasing to him and when I came to the end of my strength and my works became as filthy rages in His sight God worked a work in me that no man could work! He reached down and touchedme and baptized me with his spirit. Becoming a Christian is more than giving lip service to God

Following God does not mean I am free from sin and the desires of the flesh... but that whenever I sinned it always caused me great sorrow and I always repented and turned to the Lord for help.
It still happens to this day. Just the other day I realized how I was more worried about my things than to clean the flat and not loving my "flatmate" (a young Baptist student mind you, because I am living on the campus where my girlfriend studies) and as soon as I realized that I asked the Lord for forgiveness and vacuumed the floor and cleaned the bathroom and each of his things.
It does not mean that it will always be like that... but that I struggle every day to turn my life to Him.

[swathdiver]

I followed Christ all of my life. I find it hard to believe I am not born again because someone says so.
If I was born of the water and the Spirit what "must" I do more?

I didn't say so Daniel, the Scriptures, God says so.

[John81]

No one "follows God all their life". There has to be a specific, definite point where one is biblically born again in Christ or they are not saved, they are still lost and condemned to hell.

"Following" God on our own, getting baptized, attending church, means nothing without biblically being born again.