FREEDOM LOST

[JerryNumbers]

Well Jerry, I feel very sorry for you. For you must have a sinful God full of lust. For as I have shown, and no one has tried to prove wrong, God has been the one behind many wars. And according to your belief those in war are full of lust.

As to 1 Timothy 2, lets look at more than 2 verses.

Okay tell me is there a COMMAND to lead a quiet and peaceable life??? NO. There is a command to pray for those in authority that they will make laws allowing us to live a quiet and peaceable life. If we are to expect to have tribulation in this life, how could that be a quiet and peacable life? If we live for Christ chances are our lives will not be at peace. Take the brother in iran who is possibaly going to loose his life for Christ.
His life is not peaceful. But, through what you call rebellion we have been for the past 200 plus years been for the most part granted quiet peaceable lives. I am sure that did not come from our for fathers praying for those with authority (George Washington, etc) because those would have been prayers for nothing but sinful rebels that God would not have blessed (sarcasm!).

Thank you for feeling sorry for me, I refuse to use that type of strategy against you. And with you getting so personal this is all I have to say to you.

John made a post you ought to really consider.

[rancher824]

Jerry, I am sorry if I offended you. But it is a reasonable fact that if all war is fueled by the lust of those who are behind it, and God has and will be the driving force behind war, that therefore God is guilty of lust! As to Johns post, I will and am considering it.

[rancher824]

A quick question. If a new law is past (and with the working of this world it could come very easily) that all religious books are to be kept in religious buildings. Bibles are not allowed on the street or in private residences. What do you do??

[John81]

A quick question. If a new law is past (and with the working of this world it could come very easily) that all religious books are to be kept in religious buildings. Bibles are not allowed on the street or in private residences. What do you do??

If I tell you here then "they" will know won't they?

[swathdiver]

As an amateur military historian I've read plenty of accounts where soldiers survived circumstances that could only have happened by Divine Providence.

Romans 13 and other verses deal with good rulers, not terrors. We are to obey God when a ruler wants us to do something that goes against the Scriptures.

[Covenanter]

Last night I [Naomi Wolf] was arrested in my home town, outside an event to which I had been invited, for standing lawfully on the sidewalk in an evening gown.


Author Naomi Wolf and her partner Avram Ludwig were arrested in New York at an Occupy Wall Street protest. (photo: Mike Shane/Guardian UK)



How I Was Arrested at Occupy Wall Street

By Naomi Wolf, Guardian UK

[John81]

As an amateur military historian I've read plenty of accounts where soldiers survived circumstances that could only have happened by Divine Providence.

Romans 13 and other verses deal with good rulers, not terrors. We are to obey God when a ruler wants us to do something that goes against the Scriptures.

That can't be correct because Paul wrote during the time the very wicked Nero was in power and Paul said to be subject unto him. During the time Peter wrote of being subject to the king a wicked ruler was in place.

By and far the vast majority of rulers have been ungodly and have engaged in wickedness yet God has and continues to use them for His own purposes.

Christians are not told to only obey godly or "good" (an who get's to decide what "good" means?), but rather to obey and be subject to all kings and authorities over us. Christians are commanded to pray for them and to live for Christ under their rule. Whether God chooses to use our obedience to Him in various ways under a "good" ruler or under a ruler that persecutes Christians, even to the point of killing them, so long as we are obedient to Him God's glory and purpose will be served.

Remember the Apostles were honoured to suffer persecution and never practiced, condoned or called for any form of rebellion against any form of government or ruler.

Unfortunately, as time has gone by, most professing Christians have come to expect special consideration and treatment, expect to have peace and prosperity according to their view of such, and to believe anything that goes against their wishes is something worthy of complaining about to the point of rebellion. Scripture says the very opposite of this.

[JerryNumbers]

That can't be correct because Paul wrote during the time the very wicked Nero was in power and Paul said to be subject unto him. During the time Peter wrote of being subject to the king a wicked ruler was in place.

By and far the vast majority of rulers have been ungodly and have engaged in wickedness yet God has and continues to use them for His own purposes.

Christians are not told to only obey godly or "good" (an who get's to decide what "good" means?), but rather to obey and be subject to all kings and authorities over us. Christians are commanded to pray for them and to live for Christ under their rule. Whether God chooses to use our obedience to Him in various ways under a "good" ruler or under a ruler that persecutes Christians, even to the point of killing them, so long as we are obedient to Him God's glory and purpose will be served.

Remember the Apostles were honoured to suffer persecution and never practiced, condoned or called for any form of rebellion against any form of government or ruler.

Unfortunately, as time has gone by, most professing Christians have come to expect special consideration and treatment, expect to have peace and prosperity according to their view of such, and to believe anything that goes against their wishes is something worthy of complaining about to the point of rebellion. Scripture says the very opposite of this.

That's the reason I fail to understand the reasoning its OK to rebel again your government if you don't like what they do. Jesus, along with His 12, never did do such a thing, rebel, protest, take up arms. And when they were harassed by the law, they never filed any lawsuits.


Yet the American Christian will file lawsuits against the government at the drop of a hat, & go to court fighting with all their might to keep from suffering for the sake of Christ.


The American Christians seems to think they have become to good to suffer for the sake of Christ, & or they feel that God would never let nor ask them to suffer the least bit.

Hebrews 11:35-39
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Notice the praise God's Word heaps on these people, & more especially they would not accept deliverance, while our generation cry's loud for deliverance at ever turn.

[Covenanter]

Last night I [Naomi Wolf] was arrested in my home town, outside an event to which I had been invited, for standing lawfully on the sidewalk in an evening gown.

I was hoping this report would bring the thread back on topic.

[John81]

I was hoping this report would bring the thread back on topic.

Sorry, I must have missed that. The "go to first unread post" thing often doesn't work for me. Instead it takes me to the last post posted and sometimes I miss things posted between that and the actual last post I read.

Anyway...the government is well on it's way to regulating or outright banning all such things. It's virtually illegal, actually illegal according to some, to even as a cop to tell you what law you are violating when they come at you. In most situations today, cops today have a large amount of room to order people around, even if what the cop is telling them isn't legal. It's also illegal for a person to lie to a cop but it's legal for the police to lie to everyone else.

Constitutional protections of the right to assemble, to take issues to politicians and others in charge, are today so overly (and unconstitutionally) regulated that they are nearing being void of any meaning.

Consider how during the Bush Administration those who wanted to assemble where President Bush would be speaking or driving by were ordered that they could only do so a mile or more away, in a place where they would be cordoned off, out of sight, out of hearing distance.

[Invicta]

There was a case recently over here, where a shopkeeper put a christian poster in his window and was arrested when a atheist complained that it offended him. I beleive it went to trial and he was cleared, but when will it be that this is a legal offence?

[swathdiver]

I was hoping this report would bring the thread back on topic.

This lady is heathen Femi-Nazi and a virulent enemy of Christians and God.

There was a case recently over here, where a shopkeeper put a christian poster in his window and was arrested when a atheist complained that it offended him. I beleive it went to trial and he was cleared, but when will it be that this is a legal offence?

There was also a Christian coffee house in your country that played DVDs of someone reading the bible. Some heathen came in, ordered a cup of java and was offended when they heard the narrator read from scripture something about the sodomites. The told the polics and they made the store owner turn off the DVD and remove all religious references and verses from his christian themed coffee house.

[swathdiver]

That can't be correct...

Was there a change between the Old Testament and New Testament regarding believers and rulers? The OT has plenty of examples of the faithfull correcting or overthrowing rulers with the help of the Lord. Our Founding Fathers used these examples as the basis for separating from British rule. Were they wrong? Aren't there countless examples of Divine Providence in our nations Founding Era?

[Covenanter]

This lady is heathen Femi-Nazi and a virulent enemy of Christians and God.

Wow! That obviously justifies the fascist NYPD harassing her while walking quietly on the sidewalk, cuffing & imprisoning her.
iI thought you might denounce her as a commie, not a nazi. Did you read to the end?

The police are now telling my supporters that the permit in question gave the event managers "control of the sidewalks". I have asked to see the permit but still haven't been provided with it - if such a category now exists, I have never heard of it; that, too, is a serious blow to an open civil society. What did I take away? Just that, unfortunately, my partner and I became exhibit A in a process that I have been warning Americans about since 2007: first they come for the "other" - the "terrorist", the brown person, the Muslim, the outsider; then they come for you - while you are standing on a sidewalk in evening dress, obeying the law.

[John81]

Was there a change between the Old Testament and New Testament regarding believers and rulers? The OT has plenty of examples of the faithfull correcting or overthrowing rulers with the help of the Lord. Our Founding Fathers used these examples as the basis for separating from British rule. Were they wrong? Aren't there countless examples of Divine Providence in our nations Founding Era?

In the OT God was dealing directly with a particular nation for particular reasons. Today God is dealing with individuals, not a particular nation, and He has given His people direction through His Word. Christians are not the nation of Israel and not receiving specific guidance to act as a nation. Christians are commanded to live in accord with how God tells Christians to live in the New Testament.

In the NT Christians are commanded to honour and submit to all kings and governmental authorities that are over us. Peter and Paul both addressed this directly and did so during the time of Nero, one of the cruelest kings in history. Peter and Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Ghost commanded that Christians be subject to Nero (and all future kings/authorities), to pray for them and honour them. Peter and Paul both did as Christ commands and subjected themselves to the governmental authorities, even to the point of being executed. This is the life Christians are called to live.