This Generation

[Invicta]

On another thread, I posted

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The answer was

Who is the Lord Jesus addressing?

Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thess. 4?

However this seemed to be a rhetorical question as the poster then locked the thread without waiting for an answer.

However, here goes.


Q. Who is the Lord Jesus addressing? A. The same people he was addressing in Matthew 23, That generation of Jews. Those who filled up the measure of their fathers, by crucifying their messiah. It was because of this that the days of vengeance came upon them. Isaiah 61:2. Luke 21:22.


Q. Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thess. 4? A. Believers, ie the church as are all the letters and Revelation. Edited July 6, 2011 by Invicta

[farouk]

On another thread, I posted


The answer was



However this seemed to be a rhetorical question as the poster then locked the thread without waiting for an answer.

However, here goes.


Q. Who is the Lord Jesus addressing? A. The same people he was addressing in Matthew 23, That generation of Jews. Those who filled up the measure of their fathers, by crucifying their messiah. It was because of this that the days of vengeance came upon them. Isaiah 61:2. Luke 21:22.


Q. Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thess. 4? A. Believers, ie the church as are all the letters and Revelation.

I:

So, they seem to be different events.

[Wilchbla]

On another thread, I posted


The answer was



However this seemed to be a rhetorical question as the poster then locked the thread without waiting for an answer.

However, here goes.


Q. Who is the Lord Jesus addressing? A. The same people he was addressing in Matthew 23, That generation of Jews. Those who filled up the measure of their fathers, by crucifying their messiah. It was because of this that the days of vengeance came upon them. Isaiah 61:2. Luke 21:22.


Q. Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thess. 4? A. Believers, ie the church as are all the letters and Revelation.

I don't recall hearing that the "Son of Man" returned in 70AD.

[Covenanter]

So, they seem to be different events.

Agreed - AD 70 & the resurrection.

I don't recall hearing that the "Son of Man" returned in 70AD.

We need to consider that our Lord was speaking, & gave clear warning signs to the believers in Jerusalem & Judea to flee before the destruction. That destruction took place 40 years - a generation - after the warning was given.

We therefore need to examine the warning signs to see if & how they were fulfilled before we summarily dismiss them. Luke 21:5-24 is not controversial.

25-26 is analogous to the the destruction of Egypt by the Babylonians (Eze. 32:7-9) & the destruction of Babylon by the Chaldeans. (Isa. 13:1-17) These destructions took place, recorded in Scripture & secular history, yet the sun, moon & stars still shine. Jesus is speaking of a devastating destruction.

But did the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory? In a cloud indicates that the signs show his presence in a way that his presence had been displayed in Israel's history. The pillar of cloud & fire led them safely through the wilderness. The Psalms use figurative language: Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Psa 97:1 ¶ The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad [thereof].
2 Clouds and darkness [are] round about him: righteousness and judgment [are] the habitation of his throne.
3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.

Jesus teaches that he will come & destroy those who rejected him. A coming that is not the second coming as we understand it, for the vineyard is given to others.

Luk 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.
....
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

[dantheman2]

I don't recall hearing that the "Son of Man" returned in 70AD.

Depends on what type of "return" one is speaking of. Are we speaking of his second coming or his coming in time in judgement?

[Wilchbla]

Depends on what type of "return" one is speaking of. Are we speaking of his second coming or his coming in time in judgement?

His literal Second Coming is his coming in judgement. A Patch the Pirate kid would know this.

[Covenanter]

His literal Second Coming is his coming in judgement. A Patch the Pirate kid would know this.

Problem is, WB, that a one-eyed pirate is not our authority.

Anyone reading the Gospels seeking understanding, rather than imposing his preconceived dispensational ideas, would see clearly that "this generation" is always the people Jesus is addressing.

Tell me what the chief priests and the scribes understood when Jesus taught:

Luke 20:⁹Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
¹⁰And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
¹¹And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
¹²And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
¹³Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
¹⁴But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
¹⁵So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
¹⁶He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
¹⁷And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
¹⁸Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
¹⁹And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Hint - think the Olivet prophecy (Luke 21, & AD 70.

[Wilchbla]

You know that this is a premillenial/dispensational forum. Why do you persist in posting your garbage. Start your own forum for preterists.

[Covenanter]

You know that this is a premillenial/dispensational forum. Why do you persist in posting your garbage. Start your own forum for preterists.

How is posting Scripture "posting garbage?" My post was not "preterist," it was Scripture. Last year I did ask if the forum had a specific statement of belief in the future. Perhaps you can direct me to the forum IFB statement of faith that I am violating by being here?


The doctrinal basis of UK independent churches (FIEC) states:

9. THE FUTURE
The Lord Jesus Christ will return in glory. He will raise the dead and judge the world in righteousness. The wicked will be sent to eternal punishment and the righteous will be welcomed into a life of eternal joy in fellowship with God. God will make all things new and will be glorified forever.

This thread was started by a premil, quoting a question asked by a disp. The FIEC was the result of an initiative by a dispensationalist - Poole-Connor - but the basis of faith was carefully framed to include all Bible-believing Christians regardless of specific interpretation.

[farouk]

How is posting Scripture "posting garbage?" My post was not "preterist," it was Scripture. Last year I did ask if the forum had a specific statement of belief in the future. Perhaps you can direct me to the forum IFB statement of faith that I am violating by being here?


The doctrinal basis of UK independent churches (FIEC) states:

This thread was started by a premil, quoting a question asked by a disp. The FIEC was the result of an initiative by a dispensationalist - Poole-Connor - but the basis of faith was carefully framed to include all Bible-believing Christians regardless of specific interpretation.

You were the one who mentioned about 'preconceived dispensational ideas'. I find it hard to believe that the only way to understand the Bible is to assume first of all that Israel and church are the same.


And you know, the sort of wording that you quoted might have ostensible been presented as inclusive of people with different views of future events, but it can also be used to exclude those who believe from 1 Thess. 4 that the Lord Jesus will rapture His chuch.

[Invicta]

Rapture is a non scriptural word so can mean different things ti different people. If you mean that the Lord will return, and we will meet him in the air, then I think we will all agree. If you mean that the Lord will come "to the air", then you are adding to scipture and we will not agree.

[farouk]

Rapture is a non scriptural word so can mean different things ti different people. If you mean that the Lord will return, and we will meet him in the air, then I think we will all agree. If you mean that the Lord will come "to the air", then you are adding to scipture and we will not agree.

Invicta:

Unless you haven't been around baptist and similar churches for long, you will probably know that 'raptured' means 'caught up', and this is undeniably Biblical.

Believers will indeed meet the Lord 'in the air'.

[Covenanter]

Wilchbla, you did not say why you consider my posting of Luke 20:9-19 was "posting garbage."

Nor did you direct me to the forum IFB statement of faith that I am violating by being here?

You know that this is a premillenial/dispensational forum. Why do you persist in posting your garbage. Start your own forum for preterists.

How is posting Scripture "posting garbage?" My post was not "preterist," it was Scripture. Last year I did ask if the forum had a specific statement of belief in the future. Perhaps you can direct me to the forum IFB statement of faith that I am violating by being here?

[farouk]

I guess a question which can be asked, is, To whom is a passage addressed?

I guess, too, that if the presupposition is, that there is no difference between Israel, or the church, or tribulation saint, then passages might well be applied differently.

[Covenanter]

I guess a question which can be asked, is, To whom is a passage addressed?

Is there any occurrence of "this generation" that does not mean the people then living?

I guess, too, that if the presupposition is, that there is no difference between Israel, or the church, or tribulation saint, then passages might well be applied differently.
How is that relevant to the present thread? My ONLY presupposition is the the Bible is the word of God, & that the parables of Jesus should be understood in context.

Please tell us what YOU understand by the Luke 20 parable? Do your dispensational presuppositions affect your interpretation?