Romans 8:29-30 exposition

[John81]

"28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

'Whom'? 'These'? There's a distinction. Who are 'these'? Those who love God. Those who are called according to His purpose (verse 28). These, He foreknew, He predestined, He called, He justified, He glorified. Are all justified? Are all glorified?

No. And no one here would disagree with that.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

Maybe it's lack of sleep, but I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say here. Could you expound and/or clarify?

[Crushmaster]

Maybe it's lack of sleep, but I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say here. Could you expound and/or clarify?

I'll try. What I'm saying is, He foreknew some ("Whom, These"). These were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. They were called. They were justified. They were glorified. Not everyone has that happen to them - yet for these, those who love God, the called according to His purpose, all of these things happened to.

Hope that made sense, brother.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

[anime4christ]

I think everyone agrees on that, Joel. The question is do we love God first or are foreknown first, and how does that affect the calling? Foreknowledge obviously precedes our love toward God. Everyone here will probably agree to that as well. It is also true that God foreknew those who would love Him, and these are the ones whom He calls. However, as verse 28 states, He did not call them according to their would-be love towards Him, but He called them according to His purpose, which strips those who would love Him of being chosen based on the merit of their loving Him. Therefore God knew ahead of time who would love Him, but He did not call them because they would love Him (for that would make them merit their salvation and nullify grace), but they love Him because He has purposed to called them (making salvation by grace alone). Put it any way you like, but if God called because someone would merit something in the future, that would be salvation by works and no longer grace (which by the way still shows, whether Calvinist or not in soteriology, everyone has to agree that this calling is different from the general call, because it is only towards the foreknown, towards those who love God [as a result of being called]).

Edited June 18, 2011 by anime4christ

[Guest]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow,

God foreknew a group of people. The text does not say "For whom he knew would do this or that", but "whom he did foreknow". That means, all other people were not foreknown. Now, God does know all people and what they will do, for He is omniscient, therefore the meaning of "foreknow" in this text does not mean merely knowing on an intellectual level. There is another instance in which God knows some people and doesn't know others which then sheds light on the meaning of "foreknow" in the context of this verse. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." - Matthew 7:22-23. When God talks about knowing and not knowing people, it means in an intimate knowledge. Notice that Jesus says "I never knew you", meaning that those who were not known at the end of time, were never known by God. On the other hand, those whom He did know, were known before time began, according to Romans 8:29.

he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

All those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. There is no modifier on the group of the foreknown, therefore all are included in His predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son.

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The purpose of the conformity of the foreknown to the image of His Son is so that the Son may be the firstborn among many brethren. He (the Son) is the first, and all those conformed to His image will be His brethren after Him. The phrase "many brethren" suggests the validity of the theory that the group of the foreknown is a limited group, leaving a group not foreknown.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:

Those whom he predestined (all of the foreknown), he also called. This marks the difference between the foreknown and the others. This calling is manifested in the following result which is not manifested in those He does not know:

and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Herein is the result of the calling. Those whom He called are justified and glorified. While God calls all, it is evident that there is a special calling for the foreknown, for all who are foreknown are predestined, and all who are predestined are called, and all who are called are justified and ultimately glorified. We know that not all people are justified and glorified (Romans 9:21), so as the beginning of the text suggests, there is a group that is not foreknown, and never will be known (Matthew 7:23), while the the foreknown were and will be always known by God.

I don't know? This would seem to leave room for the UN-foreknown (also called) to give excuse for sin or other flesh issues. Or not making the grade, as in...
Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

...some might say, see I backslid because I was not predestined.

[anime4christ]

The question isn't does the doctrine bring up moral questions or not. All doctrine brings up moral questions and each doctrine attempts to address them as well. The question is: is this what the Bible passage is saying or is it saying something else? If there are no objections to what the text says, then this is true and pure doctrine. The moral questions it may bring up may calmly be addressed once the doctrine is established, if it is indeed true doctrine.

[Invicta]

...some might say, see I backslid because I was not predestined.

On the contrary, all who believe are predestined.

You may not believe it. but the scripture says so. Edited June 18, 2011 by Invicta

[John81]

I'll try. What I'm saying is, He foreknew some ("Whom, These"). These were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. They were called. They were justified. They were glorified. Not everyone has that happen to them - yet for these, those who love God, the called according to His purpose, all of these things happened to.

Hope that made sense, brother.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

Thank you! I understand what your are saying now.

[Seth Doty]

The question isn't does the doctrine bring up moral questions or not. All doctrine brings up moral questions and each doctrine attempts to address them as well. The question is: is this what the Bible passage is saying or is it saying something else? If there are no objections to what the text says, then this is true and pure doctrine. The moral questions it may bring up may calmly be addressed once the doctrine is established, if it is indeed true doctrine.

To accurately discern the teaching of a particular passage it is important to look at the scriptures as a whole rather than a particular passage in isolation. A classic example is the commandment "thou shalt not kill". Taken as a standalone passage it might be reasonable to conclude it is a blanket prohibition on all killing. However when the whole body of the scriptures is examined it is clear that there are exceptions and it is not a blanket prohibition as it would appear in a standalone passage. Such is the case with Calvinism. There are a few passages that if they are taken as standalone passages might be interpreted in line with Calvinistic doctrine, however when the body of scripture and the character of God revealed therein is examined as a whole it is clear(to some anyway I suppose, few things are ever clear to all) that Calvinism is a gross perversion of the bibles doctrine and the character of God.

Some of the vast volume of scripture verses that fly in the face of Calvinistic doctrine:

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

"1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

"2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


If Calvinism( the irresistible grace aspect) is to be taken as true it must first deal with this enormous and glaring issue. How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace", but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures? Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism although there are also numerous smaller issues that arise when it is taken to its logical conclusion. Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience? Calvinism is basically just pagan fatalism reworked and going through mental gymnastics under the pretense of taking a high view of the power of the God of the bible. Never mind that if such a thing were so God would be in violation of his own laws making him an unjust judge by his own revealed standard, the bible. The God presented by Calvinism is a God that flat has no bounds, law, or restrictions. Everything that happens, good or evil, he has decreed that it shall be so and is therefore the author of both. The God of the bible is a God that recognizes and fully understands both good and evil, and has chosen to limit himself to that which is good, because it is who he is. He has set bounds, defined right and wrong, and abides by his own law. He allows evil to continue for a time and a purpose, but he does not cause it, is not the originator of it, and will one day do away with it all together. The God of the bible is light, the God presented by Calvinism cannot be, for he would be utterly without regard for his own law. Morally by the standard of the bible he would be closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil. That ultimate conclusion is why Calvinism is such a serious perversion of the truth. Edited June 19, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[John81]

To accurately discern the teaching of a particular passage it is important to look at the scriptures as a whole rather than a particular passage in isolation. A classic example is the commandment "thou shalt not kill". Taken as a standalone passage it might be reasonable to conclude it is a blanket prohibition on all killing. However when the whole body of the scriptures is examined it is clear that there are exceptions and it is not a blanket prohibition as it would appear in a standalone passage. Such is the case with Calvinism. There are a few passages that if they are taken as standalone passages might be interpreted in line with Calvinistic doctrine, however when the body of scripture and the character of God revealed therein is examined as a whole it is clear(to some anyway I suppose, few things are ever clear to all) that Calvinism is a gross perversion of the bibles doctrine and the character of God.

Some of the vast volume of scripture verses that fly in the face of Calvinistic doctrine:

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

"1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

"2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


If Calvinism( the irresistible grace aspect) is to be taken as true it must first deal with this enormous and glaring issue. How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace", but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures? Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism although there are also numerous smaller issues that arise when it is taken to its logical conclusion. Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience? Calvinism is basically just pagan fatalism reworked and going through mental gymnastics under the pretense of taking a high view of the power of the God of the bible. Never mind that if such a thing were so God would be in violation of his own laws making him an unjust judge by his own revealed standard, the bible. The God presented by Calvinism is a God that flat has no bounds, law, or restrictions. Everything that happens, good or evil, he has decreed that it shall be so and is therefore the author of both. The God of the bible is a God that recognizes and fully understands both good and evil, and has chosen to limit himself to that which is good, because it is who he is. He has set bounds, defined right and wrong, and abides by his own law. He allows evil to continue for a time and a purpose, but he does not cause it, is not the originator of it, and will one day do away with it all together. The God of the bible is light, the God presented by Calvinism cannot be, for he would be utterly without regard for his own law. Morally by the standard of the bible he would be closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil. That ultimate conclusion is why Calvinism is such a serious perversion of the truth.

For the most part, a well put together post! Much better than the simple attacks I've seen so many put forth over the years.

[anime4christ]

Let's take this apart and address some of the issues brought up here.

To accurately discern the teaching of a particular passage it is important to look at the scriptures as a whole rather than a particular passage in isolation. A classic example is the commandment "thou shalt not kill". Taken as a standalone passage it might be reasonable to conclude it is a blanket prohibition on all killing. However when the whole body of the scriptures is examined it is clear that there are exceptions and it is not a blanket prohibition as it would appear in a standalone passage.

I agree whole-heartedly.

Such is the case with Calvinism. There are a few passages that if they are taken as standalone passages might be interpreted in line with Calvinistic doctrine, however when the body of scripture and the character of God revealed therein is examined as a whole it is clear(to some anyway I suppose, few things are ever clear to all) that Calvinism is a gross perversion of the bibles doctrine and the character of God.

Some of the vast volume of scripture verses that fly in the face of Calvinistic doctrine:

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

"1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

"2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

OK, you must back that claim up that this is the case with Calvinism. You have a perfect opportunity to do so by explaining the passage at the beginning of this thread in an expository fashion which would explain what it really means. I find several serious problems with this section of your post. You just accused Calvinists of taking verses out of context that seem to teach the doctrine when taken on there own, and then you took several verses out of context which say nothing for or against election, and attempted to prove your point in the fashion you accused Calvinism does, but in a worse manner. Also, you completely ignored the request in the beginning of this thread. Write your own exposition on Romans 8:29-30 (you can include v 28 as well if you wish) which lets us know what it is really saying. How come Arminians never follow the rules? You guys frustrate me every time because you can never engage in the debate on the same platform, using the same rules as I am. I just want to know what the text says. Is that so hard?

If Calvinism( the irresistible grace aspect) is to be taken as true it must first deal with this enormous and glaring issue. How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace", but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures? Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism although there are also numerous smaller issues that arise when it is taken to its logical conclusion. Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience? Calvinism is basically just pagan fatalism reworked and going through mental gymnastics under the pretense of taking a high view of the power of the God of the bible. Never mind that if such a thing were so God would be in violation of his own laws making him an unjust judge by his own revealed standard, the bible. The God presented by Calvinism is a God that flat has no bounds, law, or restrictions. Everything that happens, good or evil, he has decreed that it shall be so and is therefore the author of both. The God of the bible is a God that recognizes and fully understands both good and evil, and has chosen to limit himself to that which is good, because it is who he is. He has set bounds, defined right and wrong, and abides by his own law. He allows evil to continue for a time and a purpose, but he does not cause it, is not the originator of it, and will one day do away with it all together. The God of the bible is light, the God presented by Calvinism cannot be, for he would be utterly without regard for his own law. Morally by the standard of the bible he would be closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil. That ultimate conclusion is why Calvinism is such a serious perversion of the truth.

First, you have an inaccurate perception of Calvinism. No classical Calvinist disagrees with the verses you posted and they, as all theologians should, do attempt to explain those and other passages in a way that creates harmony and unity throughout all of Scripture. Second, you talk as if the issue has never been addressed, and it has -- even in the sermon by Charles Spurgeon which John posted. I would recommend you read it if this issue bothers you. His sermon addresses just this issue. Third, and most important, is that you answered my post in which I said that we can't bring the moral questions the doctrine brings up into the discussion until we have established if this is the doctrine that the Bible teaches here or not. However, you then attempt to disprove Calvinism by bringing up moral issues created by your perception of Calvinism. In other words, you did everything in this post the opposite of what I asked in the thread.

[anime4christ]

Just for the sake of letting you guys see how invalid this accusation is, I will pick it apart, but please let's not get stuck on it and focus on Romans 8:29-30 in the rest of the thread.

How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace", but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures?

What then is predestination according to foreknowledge? In your own system, does not God choose based on foreseeing the elect's merit and the reprobates' lack thereof? By this same argument, in your system, what is the point of God wanting everyone to be saved, if He knew from eternity past that there are those who will not be and He knew who they were? If you are to claim that Calvinism renders the well-meant offer and compassion towards the reprobate meaningless, then your system can be criticized by the same exact standard.

Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism although there are also numerous smaller issues that arise when it is taken to its logical conclusion.

Once again, this is your conclusion based on your perception of Calvinism, and not what it is.

Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience?

Have we not established that God does predestine, whether by His purpose and because of His love and mercy as Calvinism teaches, or by His foreknowledge of certain sinners' merit (namely, the ability to love God to some extent on their own before regeneration, Romans 8:28)? If God has already predestined to save those who would come to Him (whether by their own will or not), what is the point of preaching to those who God knows will not? So the same problem applies to your system as does to Calvinism.

Calvinism is basically just pagan fatalism reworked and going through mental gymnastics under the pretense of taking a high view of the power of the God of the bible. Never mind that if such a thing were so God would be in violation of his own laws making him an unjust judge by his own revealed standard, the bible. The God presented by Calvinism is a God that flat has no bounds, law, or restrictions.

Everything but the pagan fatalism and the pretense part here is true. Fatalism sees everything planned out by impersonal fate and goes more in line with Deism, while Calvinism sees everything planned out by a personal and loving God, who makes all things work together for good to those who love God.

God does have no bounds, law (in the same manner as we do), or restrictions. The Bible clearly states that: "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." - Psalm 115:3. God does everything that pleases Him. Such a thought should evoke a godly fear and awe of God in us. He is not like us and can do so much more according to His pleasure than we can for He has no restrictions outside of Himself. It is therefore a great and glorious thing that He is good and it is therefore good which pleases Him, so that is all that He does.

Everything that happens, good or evil, he has decreed that it shall be so and is therefore the author of both. The God of the bible is a God that recognizes and fully understands both good and evil, and has chosen to limit himself to that which is good, because it is who he is. He has set bounds, defined right and wrong, and abides by his own law. He allows evil to continue for a time and a purpose, but he does not cause it, is not the originator of it, and will one day do away with it all together.

Has He not, even if He does not elect people to salvation? If He knows everything ahead of time, does He not know who will do evil? Does He not have the power to stop them? If He chooses not to stop them, but allow that particular evil, did He not then choose to allow it to take place? The problem of why God allows evil is the same for Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike.

God does not choose to limit Himself or set bounds for Himself. He just is good and therefore limited to good by nature. He is the bounds and does not have to set any. On the rest, I agree with you.

The God of the bible is light, the God presented by Calvinism cannot be, for he would be utterly without regard for his own law. Morally by the standard of the bible he would be closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil. That ultimate conclusion is why Calvinism is such a serious perversion of the truth.

Your conclusion is once again based on your false perception. All the moral objections you brought up against Calvinism are just as valid as they are against your system. So, can we get on with the text now?

[Crushmaster]

To accurately discern the teaching of a particular passage it is important to look at the scriptures as a whole rather than a particular passage in isolation. A classic example is the commandment "thou shalt not kill". Taken as a standalone passage it might be reasonable to conclude it is a blanket prohibition on all killing. However when the whole body of the scriptures is examined it is clear that there are exceptions and it is not a blanket prohibition as it would appear in a standalone passage. Such is the case with Calvinism. There are a few passages that if they are taken as standalone passages might be interpreted in line with Calvinistic doctrine, however when the body of scripture and the character of God revealed therein is examined as a whole it is clear(to some anyway I suppose, few things are ever clear to all) that Calvinism is a gross perversion of the bibles doctrine and the character of God.

"Thou shalt not kill" is not a good example. The word underlying it means "murder", yet it was rendered "kill" because it was translated in, oh, 1769 or so. Not modern.

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

You're taking that out of context. This was a specific message to the people of God, the Israelites, who had turned away from Him. In Psalms 2, for example, God is described as laughing at evildoers, and in Psalms 5:5-6 He is said to hate them (many more could be brought forth on this subject).

"Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

This is a literal passage, it is not a spiritual one. Literally, they did not want Him gathering their children together.

"1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Yes, He wants all types of people to be saved. Men and women, Jew and Greek, black or white, tall or short, beautiful/handsome or ugly, rich or poor.

"2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Us-ward? Who's us?

The Christians! Look at the context.

If Calvinism( the irresistible grace aspect) is to be taken as true it must first deal with this enormous and glaring issue. How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace"' date=' but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures? Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism although there are also numerous smaller issues that arise when it is taken to its logical conclusion. Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience? Calvinism is basically just pagan fatalism reworked and going through mental gymnastics under the pretense of taking a high view of the power of the God of the bible. Never mind that if such a thing were so God would be in violation of his own laws making him an unjust judge by his own revealed standard, the bible. The God presented by Calvinism is a God that flat has no bounds, law, or restrictions. Everything that happens, good or evil, he has decreed that it shall be so and is therefore the author of both. The God of the bible is a God that recognizes and fully understands both good and evil, and has chosen to limit himself to that which is good, because it is who he is. He has set bounds, defined right and wrong, and abides by his own law. He allows evil to continue for a time and a purpose, but he does not cause it, is not the originator of it, and will one day do away with it all together. The God of the bible is light, the God presented by Calvinism cannot be, for he would be utterly without regard for his own law. Morally by the standard of the bible he would be closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil. That ultimate conclusion is why Calvinism is such a serious perversion of the truth. [/quote']
Nope, your interpretation of those passages is just flawed.

Your evangelism argument can also be an argument used against prayer. "Well, God already knows, He doesn't really change His mind..."

What you don't realize is that. If God didn't elect some, ALL of us would go to Hell. Psalms 14, Psalms 53, and Romans 3 (which is quoting from Psalms) tell us that NO MAN seeks after God. Nor does any [lost] man do any good! Man cannot repent and trust Christ unless they are drawn (John 6:44)*, because they hate God with a passion. They cannot because they will not.

* Want to expound on this. It says that if a man is drawn, he will be risen up on the last day. Now, we're both Pre-Mill. Revelation 20 tells us that the saved will all be resurrected when Christ returns/the beginning of the Millennium! All of them.

May God have His way in every word said here.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Crushmaster

[JerryNumbers]

Why does he have to bring this subject up over and over again and again. And yes, its all been addressed several times in several different topics on this very subject..

There is no such thing as irresistible grace taught by the Calvinist. God offers salvation to whosoever will believe, accept the wonderful unspeakable gift. As John 3:15,16 says, 'whosoever' believes shall be saved.

And God does not predestinate no one to hell, they will find their self there because they rejected the free gift, Jesus.

As Romans 1:20 declares, those that find them self in hell, will not have an excuse, they cannot blame God nor Jesus, its their fault.

If God perdestinated anyone to hell, them they would have an excuse, they could blame God, but God says they are without excuse.

[anime4christ]

Why does he have to bring this subject up over and over again and again. And yes, its all been addressed several times in several different topics on this very subject..

There is no such thing as irresistible grace taught by the Calvinist. God offers salvation to whosoever will believe, accept the wonderful unspeakable gift. As John 3:15,16 says, 'whosoever' believes shall be saved.

And God does not predestinate no one to hell, they will find their self there because they rejected the free gift, Jesus.

As Romans 1:20 declares, those that find them self in hell, will not have an excuse, they cannot blame God nor Jesus, its their fault.

If God perdestinated anyone to hell, them they would have an excuse, they could blame God, but God says they are without excuse.

He meaning me? This is an offshoot from the thread in the Way of Life blog thingy. I only brought the subject up myself when I was curious about it. It was brought up again by David Cloud, so I assumed it's a topic a lot of people are interested in since they bring it up. So I started this topic with one simple goal: create an honest exposition of Romans 8:29-30. I don't care so much to fight about the implications of the doctrine here as to establish whether or not it is found in the Bible in general and this passage specifically. I wouldn't have brought this up were there not a debate on it in the Way of Life forum/blog thing. There people were arguing all over the place on Calvinism and Arminianism. The purpose of this thread is not to find out what is logical according to human standards, whether or not one doctrine is offensive or not, what are the moral implications of the doctrine, but to simply show which doctrine is in the Bible.

[Nathaniel]

If Calvinism( the irresistible grace aspect) is to be taken as true it must first deal with this enormous and glaring issue. How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace", but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures? Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism although there are also numerous smaller issues that arise when it is taken to its logical conclusion. Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience? Calvinism is basically just pagan fatalism reworked and going through mental gymnastics under the pretense of taking a high view of the power of the God of the bible.

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You kinda are more a less battling what is called hyper-Calvinism with the directly above post; however I will do my best to try to answer about the doctrine I believe (with my limited knowledge) as I am able...
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If Calvinism( the irresistible grace aspect) is to be taken as true it must first deal with this enormous and glaring issue. How could God predestine some to be saved and give them "irresistible grace", but predestine others to hell(as calvinism teaches) and after having done that still honestly say that he wants everyone to be saved as he does numerous times in the scriptures?

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(Rom 9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
(Rom 9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
(Rom 9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
(Rom 9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
(Rom 9:5) Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(Rom 9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(Rom 9:8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Rom 9:9) For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
(Rom 9:10) And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
(Rom 9:11) (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
(Rom 9:12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(Rom 9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:14) What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(Rom 9:16) So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(Rom 9:17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:22) [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(Rom 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
(Rom 9:26) And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(Rom 9:27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
(Rom 9:28) For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(Rom 9:29) And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
(Rom 9:30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
(Rom 9:31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
(Rom 9:32) Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
(Rom 9:33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

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Furthermore,


I believe these scriptures show God's Sovereignty which hopefully no one here disputes. Notice especially also Dan 4:27 (it was certain this was going to happen; Daniel's advice was I believe was basically, do good that perhaps it come not as quickly.)

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(Ps 135:6) Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

(Dan 4:24) This [is] the interpretation, O king, and this [is] the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
(Dan 4:25) That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
(Dan 4:26) And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
(Dan 4:27) Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
(Dan 4:28) All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
(Dan 4:29) At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
(Dan 4:30) The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
(Dan 4:31) While the word [was] in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, [saying], O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
(Dan 4:32) And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
(Dan 4:33) The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws].
(Dan 4:34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:
(Dan 4:35) And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
(Dan 4:36) At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
(Dan 4:37) Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works [are] truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.



I believe these scriptures show God's drawing in salvation .

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(John 6:29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
(John 6:30) They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
(John 6:31) Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
(John 6:32) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
(John 6:33) For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
(John 6:34) Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
(John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
(John 6:36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(John 6:38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(John 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:41) The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
(John 6:42) And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
(John 6:43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(John 6:46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(John 6:48) I am that bread of life.

(John 6:60) Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
(John 6:61) When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
(John 6:62) [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
(John 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
(John 6:64) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
(John 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
(John 6:66) From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(John 6:67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(John 6:68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(John 6:69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
(John 6:70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(John 6:71) He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.



(Eph 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 1:2) Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Eph 1:3) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Eph 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Eph 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Eph 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(Eph 1:8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
(Eph 1:9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
(Eph 1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(Eph 1:15) Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
(Eph 1:16) Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
(Eph 1:17) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
(Eph 1:18) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
(Eph 1:19) And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
(Eph 1:20) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
(Eph 1:21) Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
(Eph 1:22) And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
(Eph 1:23) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

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Now as for what most likely be the response to the above I will address here; as I would have probably used this is time past.
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(John 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
(John 12:33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

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First we need to look at context
after we look I will move on to the next part as it will be answered there.
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(John 12:23) And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
(John 12:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
(John 12:25) He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
(John 12:26) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
(John 12:27) Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
(John 12:28) Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.
(John 12:29) The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it], said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
(John 12:30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
(John 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
(John 12:33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.
(John 12:34) The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
(John 12:35) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
(John 12:36) While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
(John 12:37) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
(John 12:38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
(John 12:39) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
(John 12:40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
(John 12:41) These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
(John 12:42) Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
(John 12:43) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
(John 12:44) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
(John 12:45) And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
(John 12:46) I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
(John 12:47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
(John 12:48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(John 12:49) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
(John 12:50) And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

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Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible.

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I would ask you not claiming I'm right at this point to be more careful just in-case you are wrong; and neither side I would hope believes such.

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(Heb 6:17) Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:
(Heb 6:18) That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

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Alright to move on;

without a definite defining the "all" as even "Calvinists" sometimes disagree; so I will go about it a different way.

We cannot twist one truth if indeed the text says he would have all to come then that is so. However likewise we also cannot twist a text if it indeed says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"

Even if one agrees that he would have all to come to him; it seems it would have to be a different type of will. As we see in
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(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(John 6:46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(John 6:48) I am that bread of life.


(John 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
(John 6:64) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
(John 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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If all were drawn in that manner I think they would all be raised in the last day?

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Issues such as if all the elect are going to be saved regardless because God has already decreed they will why bother with attempting to convert the lost? The "elect" will be saved regardless and the non-elect cannot be saved anyway so why bother irritating the non-elect and putting yourself to any kind of trouble or inconvenience?

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(Matt 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Rom 10:14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
(Rom 10:15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
(Rom 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
(Rom 10:17) So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom 10:18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

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Never mind that if such a thing were so God would be in violation of his own laws making him an unjust judge by his own revealed standard, the bible. The God presented by Calvinism is a God that flat has no bounds, law, or restrictions. Everything that happens, good or evil, he has decreed that it shall be so and is therefore the author of both. The God of the bible is a God that recognizes and fully understands both good and evil, and has chosen to limit himself to that which is good, because it is who he is. He has set bounds, defined right and wrong, and abides by his own law. He allows evil to continue for a time and a purpose, but he does not cause it, is not the originator of it, and will one day do away with it all together. The God of the bible is light, the God presented by Calvinism cannot be, for he would be utterly without regard for his own law. Morally by the standard of the bible he would be closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil. That ultimate conclusion is why Calvinism is such a serious perversion of the truth.

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(Rom 3:1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
(Rom 3:2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
(Rom 3:3) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(Rom 3:4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Rom 3:5) But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
(Rom 3:6) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
(Rom 3:7) For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
(Rom 3:8) And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
(Rom 3:9) What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Rom 3:13) Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
(Rom 3:14) Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
(Rom 3:15) Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
(Rom 3:16) Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
(Rom 3:17) And the way of peace have they not known:
(Rom 3:18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
(Rom 3:19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
(Rom 3:21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(Rom 3:22) Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Rom 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 3:24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(Rom 3:25) Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(Rom 3:26) To declare, [i say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(Rom 3:27) Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(Rom 3:28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Rom 3:29) [is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
(Rom 3:30) Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


(Rom 9:13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:14) What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(Rom 9:16) So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(Ps 51:1) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
(Ps 51:2) Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
(Ps 51:3) For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin [is] ever before me.
(Ps 51:4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.
(Ps 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
(Ps 51:6) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
(Ps 51:7) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
(Ps 51:8) Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice.
(Ps 51:9) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
(Ps 51:10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(Ps 51:11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
(Ps 51:12) Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.
(Ps 51:13) [Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
(Ps 51:14) Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: [and] my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
(Ps 51:15) O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
(Ps 51:16) For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
(Ps 51:17) The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
(Ps 51:18) Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
(Ps 51:19) Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.


(Rom 7:1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(Rom 7:2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:7) What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(Rom 7:8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
(Rom 7:9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(Rom 7:10) And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
(Rom 7:11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
(Rom 7:12) Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(Rom 7:13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
(Rom 7:14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(Rom 7:15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
(Rom 7:16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
(Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(Rom 7:18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
(Rom 7:19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
(Rom 7:20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(Rom 7:21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
(Rom 7:22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(Rom 7:23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(Rom 7:25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


(2Chr 19:7) Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.



(Ps 145:17) The LORD [is] righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.



(Job 40:1) Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
(Job 40:2) Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
(Job 40:3) Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
(Job 40:4) Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
(Job 40:5) Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
(Job 40:6) Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
(Job 40:7) Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
(Job 40:8) Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
(Job 40:9) Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
(Job 40:10) Deck thyself now [with] majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
(Job 40:11) Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one [that is] proud, and abase him.
(Job 40:12) Look on every one [that is] proud, [and] bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
(Job 40:13) Hide them in the dust together; [and] bind their faces in secret.
(Job 40:14) Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
(Job 40:15) Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
(Job 40:16) Lo now, his strength [is] in his loins, and his force [is] in the navel of his belly.
(Job 40:17) He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
(Job 40:18) His bones [are as] strong pieces of brass; his bones [are] like bars of iron.
(Job 40:19) He [is] the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach [unto him].
(Job 40:20) Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
(Job 40:21) He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
(Job 40:22) The shady trees cover him [with] their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
(Job 40:23) Behold, he drinketh up a river, [and] hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
(Job 40:24) He taketh it with his eyes: [his] nose pierceth through snares.
(Job 41:1) Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?
(Job 41:2) Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
(Job 41:3) Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft [words] unto thee?
(Job 41:4) Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
(Job 41:5) Wilt thou play with him as [with] a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
(Job 41:6) Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
(Job 41:7) Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
(Job 41:8) Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
(Job 41:9) Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not [one] be cast down even at the sight of him?
(Job 41:10) None [is so] fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
(Job 41:11) Who hath prevented me, that I should repay [him? whatsoever is] under the whole heaven is mine.
(Job 41:12) I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
(Job 41:13) Who can discover the face of his garment? [or] who can come [to him] with his double bridle?
(Job 41:14) Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth [are] terrible round about.
(Job 41:15) [His] scales [are his] pride, shut up together [as with] a close seal.
(Job 41:16) One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
(Job 41:17) They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
(Job 41:18) By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes [are] like the eyelids of the morning.
(Job 41:19) Out of his mouth go burning lamps, [and] sparks of fire leap out.
(Job 41:20) Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as [out] of a seething pot or caldron.
(Job 41:21) His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
(Job 41:22) In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
(Job 41:23) The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
(Job 41:24) His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether [millstone].
(Job 41:25) When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
(Job 41:26) The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
(Job 41:27) He esteemeth iron as straw, [and] brass as rotten wood.
(Job 41:28) The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
(Job 41:29) Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
(Job 41:30) Sharp stones [are] under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
(Job 41:31) He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
(Job 41:32) He maketh a path to shine after him; [one] would think the deep [to be] hoary.
(Job 41:33) Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
(Job 41:34) He beholdeth all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the children of pride.


(Jas 1:13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
(Jas 1:14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
(Jas 1:15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
(Jas 1:16) Do not err, my beloved brethren.


(Eph 6:24) Grace [be] with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Edited June 19, 2011 by Nathaniel