Packed bags

[anotherjeff]

I'm not special enough to post to the "real" KJB board, so that is the reason I posted here. I won't be allowed to answer once it gets moved, but maybe someone can answer this in a way I won't have to ask more questions.
I ran into another stumper of a question in my diligent search for the truth about the Bible version issue. The problem is what to do with the "copyist errors"?

I was looking through Sword Searcher Program that I got from WayofLife.org when I accidentally found several references to such copyist errors found in the old testament in the Keil and Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary.
I ran a simple search in this commentary using just the word "error" and got back 332 hits. Not all of these hits are copyist errors, but there are plenty listed.

I asked Bro. Cloud at Wayoflife.org to help me understand this, but he said "I have never looked at those, sorry."

Is there anyone here who has looked into this?
There is no need to try and convince me of the superiority of the KJB, I'm already there, I just don't know how to answer stuff like this.
Thanks!

[Annie]

I'm not special enough to post to the "real" KJB board, so that is the reason I posted here. I won't be allowed to answer once it gets moved, but maybe someone can answer this in a way I won't have to ask more questions.
I ran into another stumper of a question in my diligent search for the truth about the Bible version issue. The problem is what to do with the "copyist errors"?

I was looking through Sword Searcher Program that I got from WayofLife.org when I accidentally found several references to such copyist errors found in the old testament in the Keil and Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary.
I ran a simple search in this commentary using just the word "error" and got back 332 hits. Not all of these hits are copyist errors, but there are plenty listed.

I asked Bro. Cloud at Wayoflife.org to help me understand this, but he said "I have never looked at those, sorry."

Is there anyone here who has looked into this?
There is no need to try and convince me of the superiority of the KJB, I'm already there, I just don't know how to answer stuff like this.
Thanks!

I've never looked at the source you documented, Jeff. But, yes, there is plentiful evidence that errors have been made along the way by copyists. Fortunately, enough manuscripts exist for comparison, so that these errors become fairly obvious to those who have studied the languages and compared the manuscripts. And, I have yet to see a copyist error that affects any sort of doctrine or practice. (Don't get me wrong; I'm not a language scholar, but, like you, I've studied the version issue pretty extensively, reading numerous sources on both sides of the issue.) I praise God that He has made His redemptive plan crystal clear in the Bible; it is a theme that is repeated all the way from Genesis to Revelation. His Word to us has been preserved; we can learn correct doctrine as well as how we should live our lives.

Full disclosure, Jeff: I'm not KJVO (which prevents me from posting in the IFB forum). But, in all my discussions over the years with KJVO's, I've never met anyone who could point to a matter of doctrine or practice in which I differ from them because of a certain rendering, or a copyist error, or acceptance of a certain translation. I agree in doctrine and practice with just about everybody in this forum, and where I might disagree with some, the disagreement cannot be traced back to the fact that I'm using such-and-such "(per)"version of the Scripture. The disagreements have always been rooted in differing applications of Scripture we all affirm as true.

Just a few random thoughts, which may or may not answer your question. We can talk via PM if you have any more questions, since I doubt this discussion will be permitted in the open forum. Edited April 19, 2011 by Annie

[Bro Jim]

It might help if you gave an example of what KDOTC says are copy errors. Some that claim copy errors exist are using two different verses to contradict each other when they don't.

[anotherjeff]

Annie said;
... But, in all my discussions over the years with KJVO's, I've never met anyone who could point to a matter of doctrine or practice in which I differ from them because of a certain rendering, or a copyist error, or acceptance of a certain translation. I agree in doctrine and practice with just about everybody in this forum, and where I might disagree with some, the disagreement cannot be traced back to the fact that I'm using such-and-such "(per)"version of the Scripture. The disagreements have always been rooted in differing applications of Scripture we all affirm as true.

Just a few random thoughts, which may or may not answer your question. We can talk via PM if you have any more questions, since I doubt this discussion will be permitted in the open forum.

We have found that there are cases in which misapplying the KJB does lead to false conclusions. One example of this; The pastor holds to the "Gap Theory" he says is a "certainty" because of the following 2 verses.

Bible Declares
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. (Genesis 9:1)

He says because the word replenish is used in both places it is obvious there is a need to ->re<- plenish.
The Gap theory leaves millions of years someplace not mentioned in the Bible, and it is difficult to believe the rest of the Bible if the beginning of it can't be trusted! (I personally do not agree with the Gap theory at all)

Just a simple look up in the Websters 1828 dictionary, defines the word replensih, and eliminates the problem. But if said pastor who studied this out over the years didn't take the time to look at the dictionary meaning of the word replenish, and teaches something like well... "if science said it's true, it is!" <-- It literally makes me sick. It's like saying you can trust science but you can't trust the Bible, and all the while pounding the pulpit the Bible is true, the KJB is inerrant, and just believe it just as it is written.

This attitude is what I have discovered to be coming to the right conclusion for the wrong reason. As far as I know how to understand it. It's right to believe the Bible, but it's wrong to not understand the words.

But this case is not isolated, and I have asked several IFB pastors to explain things like "why don't you preach repentance and the Cross?" only to be fired upon for trying to catch the preacher in his words...
IFB pastors have really been difficult to even talk to, because they just turn their back to you if you haven't been baptized by them. Most (actually all I have contacted) ignore and exclude you, passing the determination that "you are not asking a genuine question and are being divisive". "What is the Gospel you preach?" is met with suspicion and dread. This is the running case of evidence with the IFB pastors I have asked, and most if not all just point to their statement of beliefs. Not a single one has ever even tried to find out if I am actually saved at all. Even after I specifically asked them to tell me the Gospel...

So there are problems that do occur when the KJB is not defined accurately.
I'm not going to list other stuff, I really didn't come to do that because there are just a lot of difficult things that I have questions about that are not edifying to a public audience, and yet they need a host of Godly Counselors to wrestle I think. I've gotten into the habit of just ignoring and forgetting the issues.

Rather than list the copyist errors listed in the KDTOC, I really am hoping to hear from someone who has looked into or is willing to look into this commentary and just do a simple search of it using the term --> error <--. I'm not really looking for an answer of each item there really, I have the same opinion Annie does on this particular matter (Thank you Annie!), and yet I just want to dig a little deeper because my own opinion is not satisfying me on this.

[1Timothy115]

But this case is not isolated, and I have asked several IFB pastors to explain things like "why don't you preach repentance and the Cross?" only to be fired upon for trying to catch the preacher in his words...
IFB pastors have really been difficult to even talk to, because they just turn their back to you if you haven't been baptized by them. Most (actually all I have contacted) ignore and exclude you, passing the determination that "you are not asking a genuine question and are being divisive". "What is the Gospel you preach?" is met with suspicion and dread. This is the running case of evidence with the IFB pastors I have asked, and most if not all just point to their statement of beliefs. Not a single one has ever even tried to find out if I am actually saved at all. Even after I specifically asked them to tell me the Gospel...

So there are problems that do occur when the KJB is not defined accurately.
I'm not going to list other stuff, I really didn't come to do that because there are just a lot of difficult things that I have questions about that are not edifying to a public audience, and yet they need a host of Godly Counselors to wrestle I think. I've gotten into the habit of just ignoring and forgetting the issues.

Rather than list the copyist errors listed in the KDTOC, I really am hoping to hear from someone who has looked into or is willing to look into this commentary and just do a simple search of it using the term --> error <--. I'm not really looking for an answer of each item there really, I have the same opinion Annie does on this particular matter (Thank you Annie!), and yet I just want to dig a little deeper because my own opinion is not satisfying me on this.

I am not perfect and have no special gift but sense something else in your questioning. Have you ever trusted Jesus Christ and accepted Him as Savior and Lord of your life?

[Wilchbla]

I'm not special enough to post to the "real" KJB board, so that is the reason I posted here. I won't be allowed to answer once it gets moved, but maybe someone can answer this in a way I won't have to ask more questions.
I ran into another stumper of a question in my diligent search for the truth about the Bible version issue. The problem is what to do with the "copyist errors"?

I was looking through Sword Searcher Program that I got from WayofLife.org when I accidentally found several references to such copyist errors found in the old testament in the Keil and Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary.
I ran a simple search in this commentary using just the word "error" and got back 332 hits. Not all of these hits are copyist errors, but there are plenty listed.

I asked Bro. Cloud at Wayoflife.org to help me understand this, but he said "I have never looked at those, sorry."

Is there anyone here who has looked into this?
There is no need to try and convince me of the superiority of the KJB, I'm already there, I just don't know how to answer stuff like this.
Thanks!

Despite he professed position of the inerrancy of the KJV Bro. Cloud believes there are errors in the KJV. He believes the Textus Receptus is without error.

You would have to give example of the " copyists errors" for anyone to really answer your question.

[Annie]

Jeff, I'm sorry for your experiences with IFB pastors. I'm thankful to say that I've never been a member of an IFB church in which the pastor has been dismissive or condescending in the least...the "man-o'-God syndrome" has been mercifully nonexistent in every IFB church of which I've been a member, and the baptism thing has never come up. I think, too, that the way we approach pastors is important to consider....Are we coming with a "trying to catch you saying something wrong" attitude? Are we argumentative and accusative, or friendly in our questioning? Are we framing our questions in a way that our pastors understand what we are saying, and desire to respond? To be honest, if someone came up to my husband and asked why he didn't preach repentance and the Cross, he'd be offended. Why? Because repentance and the Cross are central to the gospel, and the person framing a question in this way would effectively be accusing (not really questioning) my husband of being a false teacher. It's like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?" It would be better to ask, "Pastor, what's your view of repentance? How does it fit into what you were just saying in your sermon? What place does it have in a person's salvation?" etc.

I'm not saying you're being argumentative...Just the way you phrased your post made me wonder a bit.

About the KJVO position...I have no problem with people who hold to that position in humility and don't find it necessary to "separate" from brethren who see the issue differently. I enjoy fellowship with many KJVO's who are not divisive. We have fun discussing the issue, or leaving it alone if "going there" would damage our relationship.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Annie

[JerryNumbers]

There be many things you cannot convince people of, no matter how good of answers you have or how good the answer sounds, yet that is the job of the Holy Spirit, we can't do that job, yet many try.

There be many that will use anything they can find to shoot down the KJ Bible, there is no reasoning with those people. And they be many of them on the net.

[anotherjeff]

I am not perfect and have no special gift but sense something else in your questioning. Have you ever trusted Jesus Christ and accepted Him as Savior and Lord of your life?

1st thank you for asking "Have you ever trusted Jesus Christ and accepted Him as Savior and Lord of your life?"
Yes!
Would that make me saved? I was also baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, would that finalize the deal? I was also baptized again and spoke in tongues after being prayed for to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, would that provide the evidence I really was saved for some? I spent may years tithing and going to church and doing lots of good deeds, is that evidence for others?

My answers to the question you asked don't really answer the question however, because my first and second response were referring to my Mormon conversion, then I referred to my Pentecostal type conversion, then my Calvary Chapel conversion. Non of those conversions are actually Biblical or true to Saving Faith however good it could sound on the surface to complete the requirements of said religions.

To expose my hidden agenda... I've gone through a lot of liars, wolves, and "hirelings" trying to get to the bottom of what is the Real Gospel, and True Saving Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, what Bible version is the one to use, and so on, and I do take 1 John 4:1 "try the spirits" quite literally, as we all must do. As part of my test, I just use the Bible...

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2-3)

When the pastor refuses to confess the Lord Jesus Christ, and won't actually tell me the Gospel but turns the question on to me or something else, I have my answer just like that. (The Bible is so awesome like that!) It really helps get past a lot of false teachers, and the Bible is reliable, unlike a "burning in the bosom" or other so called evidence including do they use a KJB or not. (they should use a KJB but just because they do, doesn't make them automatically right)

So yes absolutely, I am framing the questions as actually loaded to the pastors I mentioned, because I am not an IFB (yet?) and I am looking at what it means to be an IFB from all angels because I have been abused, deceived fooled, lied to, and these questions have eternal consequences. It really truly does matter what you "think" the Gospel is. If the Gospel is offensive to you, think about why. If the Gospel you proclaim isn't the one in the Bible, it would be another Gospel and not Biblical. right?

But what about my original question? Is anyone going to answer that? Specifically and only if you have or are willing to look at the KDTOC commentary please. This is old testament commentary about the copyist errors (their words not mine) in the Hebrew text, not the KJB per say.

[i tried to briefly answer all the posts up until now in this one post]

[Annie]

But what about my original question? Is anyone going to answer that? Specifically and only if you have or are willing to look at the KDTOC commentary please. This is old testament commentary about the copyist errors (their words not mine) in the Hebrew text, not the KJB per say.

Is this document/commentary available online? I've never heard of it, although I'm aware of copyist errors in the Hebrew text.

[anotherjeff]

Is this document/commentary available online? I've never heard of it, although I'm aware of copyist errors in the Hebrew text.

It is available for free in e-Sword, you would need to install that first if you haven't already, and here is the commentary page there at e-sword.
e-sword commentary page

Commentary on the Old Testament
Karl Keil and Franz Delitzsch. 1866.


PREFACE
The Old Testament is the basis of the New. (Heb 1:1-2) The Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. For Christ came not to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfil. As He said to the Jews, "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me;" so also, a short time before His ascension, He opened the understanding of His disciples, that they might understand the Scriptures, and beginning at Moses and all the prophets, expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. With firm faith in the truth of this testimony of our Lord, the fathers and teachers of the Church in all ages have studied the Old Testament Scriptures, and have expounded the revelations of God under the Old Covenant in learned and edifying works, unfolding to the Christian community the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God which they contain, and impressing them upon the heart, for doctrine, for reproof, for improvement, for instruction in righteousness. It was reserved for the Deism, Naturalism, and Rationalism which became so prevalent in the closing quarter of the eighteenth century, to be the first to undermine the belief in the inspiration of the first covenant, and more and more to choke up this well of saving truth; so that at the present day depreciation of the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament is as widely spread as ignorance of what they really contain. At the same time, very much has been done during the last thirty years on the part of believers in divine revelation, to bring about a just appreciation and correct understanding of the Old Testament Scriptures.

May the Lord grant His blessing upon our labours, and assist with His own Spirit and power a work designed to promote the knowledge of His holy Word.

[Annie]

It is available for free in e-Sword, you would need to install that first if you haven't already, and here is the commentary page there at e-sword.
e-sword commentary page

Thanks, Jeff. For some reason my computer is not allowing me to download the document. Maybe I'll try again in the morning. Do you have a specific question about the commentary?

[Annie]

http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/5system_moses/dh13_copyistError.aspx

In the meantime, Jeff, here's a link you might find interesting. This article comments on Keil and Delitzsch's findings.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Annie

[anotherjeff]

http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/5system_moses/dh13_copyistError.aspx

In the meantime, Jeff, here's a link you might find interesting. This article comments on Keil and Delitzsch's findings.

Thanks for taking the time to answer and post a link. I'm already per-prejudiced against several of the authors cited in the article, such as Geisler, Kenyon, Metzger, Archer and I bet if I research some of the others I will find most of the authors to be in the same "camp", and generally of the opinion that it is their duty to correct the corrupted (in their opinion) Word of God. The article displayed a general lack of accuracy in their research, and equate the Bible right along with secular work. as if the Bible was just another literary piece full of mistakes, and it's OK.

For example, biblical scholar Gleason Archer has stated: "Even the earliest and best manuscripts that we possess are not totally free of transmissional errors. Numbers are occasionally miscopied, the spelling of proper names is occasionally garbled, and there are examples of the same types of scribal error that appear in other ancient documents as well" (1982, p. 27). Do copyists’ errors appear in other ancient documents, too? Most assuredly! Corruptions in the writings of the Greek classics are very common.

This line of thinking is problematic from the start. It introduces the idea that we suppose the Bible to be in error and in need of correction. It drives their conclusions and that is based on unbelief. It taints everything, and I have read and listened to this position, but am not satisfied it is reliable enough to trust. (it is after all a position built on distrust)

What does someone say from the position that the Bible is accurate, we don't need to correct it, rather we need to fully understand what is said. So the question is more directed to the KJVO or KJB defender who has studied this issue, because I want to see the opposite attitude displayed, if it really is possible.

I listened to a Debate between Bart Ehrman and James White, and I don't think White really answered Ehrman question "Which one of all the copies of the copies of the copies is really right?" White says, something like "Gods word is preserved somewhere in all of those, isn't that great?". This leave me to wonder who is the person or persons that can finally bring me Gods real words then? It's just where that line of thinking goes.

To say a doctrine here or there isn't really changed isn't an argument that makes sense either, Many churches can't seem to agree on most things, even salvation. Why? Is it a version issue? The more I study, the more I am convinced it's not the version itself exactly, but the heart that comes to the Word of God, without trust and faith. Ready to correct and change what isn't understood or agreed with. That attitude is prevalent in both camps I am finding!

How many times have you heard "the lion will lay down with the lamb" for example, a teaching popular in IFB and similar-ish denominations? Now, go find it in your Bible, any Bible. It isn't there. So how many other popular teachings have I embraced that are not in the KJB or any other Bible? The IFB preacher demands absolute submission (as I have read in some of their doctrinal statements and is the brunt of the 20/20 thing on TV or in the news recently), but fails to Shepard and watch over the flock and the Truth he is supposed to be preaching, such as spouting the erroneous "Gap Certainty" which leads to doubt in the Word of God.

I've lost hope that Bro. Cloud can answer tough questions like presented by Bart Ehrman, but a KJB defender should answer him.

[Annie]

Jeff, it sounds like you have a lot of questions that may or may not be related. I hope you can find someone to help you answer them. I don't think I can help you to your satisfaction, since I am not KJVO.