What is hell?

[Annie]

Hi, betteroffdead. I haven't taken the time to read all of the posts in this thread, but I've read enough to sense some antagonism on all sides. Would you say that you're antagonistic toward Christians? What is your purpose here? What is your background? You interest me.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If the Bible really says that sinners will suffer eternal physical hellfire, and such language in the Bible is not simply figurative, is there any documentation outside of the Bible that eternal hellfire for sinners is what 1st and 2nd century Christians believed? What documentation do we have apart from the Bible that eternal hellfire is what Christians have always believed?

Is there any documentation outside of the King James Bible that eternal hellfire is what the King James Translators believed? How do we today know that the AKJ is an accurate translation and not simply the product of the personal (and possibly false) doctrines of its translators?

I know the one who asked this question is banned, but I wanted to answer his question. There indeed is documentation outside of the Bible that contains the teaching that the wicked will be tormented for all eternity.

Flavius Josephus, a historian who lived in the 1st Century A.D. wrote a discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades. Here is what he wrote:

An Extract out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades

4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.



6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: Concerning Whom We Have Elsewhere Given A More Particular Account, For The Sake Of Those Who Seek After Truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, Just Is Thy Judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it he hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[rstrats]

I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

[Annie]

I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

Rhetoric like this doesn't help arrive at a reasonable solution. You might want to try expressing your opponent's viewpoint in a way that he/she would agree with. Look, I've struggled through this issue, too, and have examined the Scriptures, not just "accepting what I've been taught." But I don't believe God is a monster, and your characterizing my position in that way erects a barrier which blocks any flow of ideas between us. Edited June 3, 2011 by Annie

[rstrats]

Annie,

re: “ You might want to try expressing your opponent's viewpoint in a way that he/she would agree with.”


If a person doesn’t want to believe in eternal torture for the unsaved why do you think they try to interpret scripture to the contrary?

[Annie]

Annie,

re: “ You might want to try expressing your opponent's viewpoint in a way that he/she would agree with.”


If a person doesn’t want to believe in eternal torture for the unsaved why do you think they try to interpret scripture to the contrary?

Maybe you don't understand what I am saying. You are not characterizing your opponents' position in way that your opponents would agree with. Here's an example of what you are doing:

DEMOCRAT: Those heartless, unfeeling Republicans...If they didn't want to deny a woman's right to privacy, then why do you think that they pretend to believe that life begins at conception so that they can do just that?

REPUBLICAN: Those heartless, unfeeling Democrats...If they didn't want to mutilate and murder helpless, innocent babies, then why would they pretend to champion "women's rights" so that they can do just that?

Rhetoric is so very exciting and sensational, but it doesn't truly win debates, except in the minds of the gullible and emotional. Edited June 3, 2011 by Annie

[John81]

In this case, how about simply posting the verses which tell us what hell is and believing what the Word says?

[Annie]

In this case, how about simply posting the verses which tell us what hell is and believing what the Word says?

Because it is impossible to discuss any serious issue with someone who rants instead of argues.

[John81]

Because it is impossible to discuss any serious issue with someone who rants instead of argues.

Agreed. Which is why once the Scriptures are put forth, there is really nothing else that needs to be said. In the case of hell and the eternal destiny of the unsaved, Scripture is clear.

[rstrats]

Annie,

re: "Maybe you don't understand what I am saying. You are not characterizing your opponents' position in way that your opponents would agree with."

So you're saying that they don't want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in torment?

[rstrats]

John81,

re: “In the case of hell and the eternal destiny of the unsaved, Scripture is clear.

Absolutely - the wages of sin is death. There simply is no scripture that has to be taken no other way than to say that the unsaved are given eternal life to spend it in never ending torture.

[Annie]

Annie,

re: "Maybe you don't understand what I am saying. You are not characterizing your opponents' position in way that your opponents would agree with."

So you're saying that they don't want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in torment?

I'm saying that it's not a matter of "wanting" or "not wanting" at all. These are irrational, subjective, emotionally laden, motives-judging terms that do not belong in a serious, objective discussion. Edited June 4, 2011 by Annie

[John81]

John81,

re: “In the case of hell and the eternal destiny of the unsaved, Scripture is clear.

Absolutely - the wages of sin is death. There simply is no scripture that has to be taken no other way than to say that the unsaved are given eternal life to spend it in never ending torture.

Where are the verses dealing with hell and the destiny of the unsaved?

[Annie]

Agreed. Which is why once the Scriptures are put forth, there is really nothing else that needs to be said. In the case of hell and the eternal destiny of the unsaved, Scripture is clear.

It is not clear to people who are driven by preconceived notions based upon 1) their judgment of their opponents' motives and 2) upon their own emotion and feelings about what God should or should not be like.

[JerryNumbers]

Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I suppose, for some, its easy to jerk a few verses out of context to create a doctrine of their own that is not of the Bible nor of God. But the day is coming when many will find out creating such a doctrine did nothing good for them, and I suppose many there will be that will find their self in the same condition as the rich man, Luke:16, suffering torment in hell until the last judgment when they will be cast into the fire that will never cease burning, which equals to eternal damnation, that is never ending.

And by doing this it does not make God a monster, every single person will make their very own choice in where to spend eternity, God will just carry out the choice they make, and of course for those that do not make a choice, the default is eternal damnation.

That is Jesus is an equal opportunity Savior, and God's will is that all men be saved, yet he dose not force slavation on no one.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Sad thing, some will let the devil blind them to God's truth, therefore believeing lies, they will find their self in the mist of eternal pumishment, while all saved will be confortable in heaven forever.

I want argue with you about it yet someone needed to post the truth for those that do not let the old devil blind them to God's truths.