Abraham Lincoln: Saint or Sinner?

[Invicta]

This evening I watched a programme "Abraham Lincoln: Saint or Sinner?"

Some said he was all bad, others part bad and part good.

What do you think?

[Seth Doty]

This evening I watched a programme "Abraham Lincoln: Saint or Sinner?"

Some said he was all bad, others part bad and part good.

What do you think?

I think he was a generally "moral" lost man with good intentions and a overwhelming desire to preserve the union at almost any cost. If you ask John81 though he will probably say Lincoln was the worst president america ever had and that Robert E. Lee was a great Christian. Even though it has been 150 years or so since the American civil war opinions still run strong.

[John81]

Debunking the Abe Lincoln Myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMloCPMhQSE

[John81]

If I were to answer the question "saint or sinner", based upon Scripture and what his wife and closest friends said, Lincoln was a lost sinner.

As to "all bad or all good", I don't believe any man is either. The worst of men have something good about them while the best of men have something bad about them.

Lincoln wasn't a Believer, he didn't obey the Bible, he didn't obey the Constitution, so he was/is not a fit role model for Christians or those who claim to love the Constitution.

[chev1958]

Whether Lincoln was a Christian or not, I can't say. He did use a lot of religious rhetoric in his speeches and comments. However, as far as being the Great Emancipator, he never "freed" all the slaves in America; he couldn't constitutionally. He declared "free" only the slaves in the Southern states to fight for the Union.

Here, in the county where I live in Iowa, there's a museum at a house that was part of the Underground Railroad. After a tour through the house, I had a chat with the tour guide (and eventually with her bosses) about the errors in their scripts. I haven't been back to see if my suggestions were included, but I doubt it. After all, the victors are the ones who get to write history.

[Crushmaster]

I have to agree with Brother John. No reason to believe he was saved, and around his time was when the government was getting bigger...and bigger...and bigger. E.g., he did several unconstitutional acts during the war. Et cetera.

He's largely a myth...
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

[Anon]

I read a biography of Mary Todd Lincoln and came to the conclusion that he was a moral man and probably religious.....may or may not have been saved. Mary Todd definitely was not saved. Only God knows of course. I do not think Lincoln was a bad man or a bad President, but on the other hand, I do not think he was the great Christian man that some Christian biographies would like to put forth although he could have been saved.

[Invicta]

I must admit to not knowing much about the American Civil War. I thought it was all anout slaves, but after reading Chiniquy's 50 years in the Church of Rome he seems to suggest it was all a Papal plot to overthrow American protestantism. He says that when Lincoln heard that when the Pope addressed Jeff Davis as "My beloved son" Lincoln knew the papists would bump him off. He said that Lincoln considered himself like Moses, as one who would never ocupy the promised land, and refused to defend himself against asassins.

The programme (above) said that the South fired the first shots.

But I wasn't there, so I don't know.

[Invicta]

Sorry, Post duplicated.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Invicta

[John81]

I must admit to not knowing much about the American Civil War. I thought it was all anout slaves, but after reading Chiniquy's 50 years in the Church of Rome he seems to suggest it was all a Papal plot to overthrow American protestantism. He says that when Lincoln heard that when the Pope addressed Jeff Davis as "My beloved son" Lincoln knew the papists would bump him off. He said that Lincoln considered himself like Moses, as one who would never ocupy the promised land, and refused to defend himself against asassins.

The programme (above) said that the South fired the first shots.

But I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Chiniquy was a fraud. He was a crooked hussler both in and out of the RCC.

Lincoln believed there was some god, providence or greater power, but he disavowed Jesus. Lincoln's beliefs were shaped and in line with many of the Freethinkers of his day.

Lincoln didn't have any problems with Catholics, his agents in Europe brought tens of thousands of Catholics to America in order to fill his army. When Lincoln began offering passage to America in exchange for military service, the Pope encouraged European Catholics to go. If I recall correctly, Dr. Grady touched on this pretty good in his book, "What Hath God Wrought".

The war itself was mostly over interpretation and implementation of the Constitution and taxation issues. Slavery was a side issue and Lincoln himself said that while he didn't want to see slavery extended into any new territories, he wasn't going to try and end slavery where it already existed. Lincoln eventually elevated the slavery issue as a war measure. Firstly to frame the war as having slavery being a key factor in order to keep England and France from recognizing the Confederacy and giving them aid. Secondly, in the hopes of inciting slaves in the South to rise up and begin killing whites not in the army so that soldiers in the Confederate army would leave the field to protect their families. The first part worked as hoped, the seconed part never happened.

The regional differences in America existed at the beginning and simply brewed until finally coming to a boil in 1860.

[Invicta]

Chiniquy was a fraud. He was a crooked hussler both in and out of the RCC.

Lincoln believed there was some god, providence or greater power, but he disavowed Jesus. Lincoln's beliefs were shaped and in line with many of the Freethinkers of his day.

Lincoln didn't have any problems with Catholics, his agents in Europe brought tens of thousands of Catholics to America in order to fill his army. When Lincoln began offering passage to America in exchange for military service, the Pope encouraged European Catholics to go. If I recall correctly, Dr. Grady touched on this pretty good in his book, "What Hath God Wrought".

The war itself was mostly over interpretation and implementation of the Constitution and taxation issues. Slavery was a side issue and Lincoln himself said that while he didn't want to see slavery extended into any new territories, he wasn't going to try and end slavery where it already existed. Lincoln eventually elevated the slavery issue as a war measure. Firstly to frame the war as having slavery being a key factor in order to keep England and France from recognizing the Confederacy and giving them aid. Secondly, in the hopes of inciting slaves in the South to rise up and begin killing whites not in the army so that soldiers in the Confederate army would leave the field to protect their families. The first part worked as hoped, the seconed part never happened.

The regional differences in America existed at the beginning and simply brewed until finally coming to a boil in 1860.

According to the programme I watched, many escaped slave joined the Union armies and fought well which some thought they never would.

If a state wanted to secede today, would that still be considered treason?

[Invicta]

Chiniquy was a fraud. He was a crooked hussler both in and out of the RCC.

Would you like to elaborate?

[John81]

According to the programme I watched, many escaped slave joined the Union armies and fought well which some thought they never would.

If a state wanted to secede today, would that still be considered treason?

Constitutionally, it wasn't then and isn't now any form of treason for a State to secede. The United States was formed as a voluntary union with the understanding that any State could leave at any time. Some States, before signing onto the union specifically put that in their joining statement. This constitutional fact was even taught in West Point up until near the time of the war.

There were some former slaves in the Union army and some did indeed fight well. Far lesser known is how many thousands of slaves and free blacks served in the Confederate armies, side-by-side with the whites, unlike the segregated units in the Union armies.

[John81]

Would you like to elaborate?

It's been a long while since I read about it, but there used to be some sites online explaining this pretty well. There are also a few books but I don't recall the names off hand.

[Invicta]

As I said, I don't know much about the American Civil war. We didn't even do much about the English Civil war in history at school. I suppose we should have a programme Oliver Cromwell, Saint or Sinner

I would say, Saint. Others would disagree.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Invicta