Youth Pastors

[Anon]

Well if we want to discuss church history.....

[HappyChristian]

1 Tim. 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shal be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sOBriety.

Excellent verses, Josh. PrOBlem is they have no bearing on this current discussion. In effect you were telling me to be silent. But this isn't a church setting nor a Bible class (ergo, I am usurping no man's authority...in fact, I'm a moderator under BroMatt's request and my hubby's permission...). It is a forum for fellowship with likeminded believers. Fellowship isn't always sweetness and light, I know that. But neither is it necessary to belittle. By all means, call a spade a spade, but please try and remember that God works with us all differently. My pastor follows God's leading for our particular church. Your pastor does the same. Jerry8, as pastor, does also. As do the other men on this forum who are pastors. Is the leading always and ever the same? Doctrinally, yes, if we follow the Bible. Church practice, not necessarily so. We are given liberty as believers. That liberty allows us freedoms to operate within the bounds of that liberty. SWIM?

[OFIB Preacher]

I must be doing it all wrong, I never sit with my family during church. I'm thinking about having my family up on the stage with me so that we can be together.

I'm kinda of disappointed in the lack of Scriptural support for the case some are making here. I saw Scripture about training a child and how we worship God is Spirit, but those Scriptures have nothing to do with keeping families together in service. Without Scripture this only becomes a personal conviction. Personal convictions are great as we all have them, but we must remember that they are just personal.

We must realize that different programs are needed for different churches. I've been in inner city churches where you can never do things the way you do things in a country church, and the same is vice-versa. There is no Scriptural support on this area for all churches across the board. This is the reason why this is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, it is up to the local pastor to listen to God to decide how to run that church. Of course I will gladly change my view if Scripture is there to support it.

First of all, I realize your comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but, you have a "stage?" Why not a platform and pulpit? Are you entertaining, rather than preaching?
Second of all, if someone truly "listens to God," he'll tell them to keep the family together and not to separate them! He won't lead someone one way and someone else another! That's confusion and we all know God's not the author of confusion! He never leads contrary to His word!

[HappyChristian]

Your getting very good at using such remarks when you disagree with some one. Quite an accusation. Why not just say you disagree and why, them leave it at that, them leave such remarks off? Such remarks are not very becoming to you.

No, one does not have to have a nursery, I've said that much, and it was not from me being self-righteous, I was telling it just as it is, nothing more. Plus I do not like to be called self-righteous.


I've seen it proven over and over again in my 63 years by parents that train their children properly. And yes, a parent has to make a trip out of the worship service once in a while, sometime to disciple the child, sometimes to comfort the child, and or other issues early on. But if done right that will soon be a thing of the past.


Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.


It works only if the parent does it.

Jerry8: I did state why I disagreed. Disdain is an ungodly thing, and it's rooted in pride. Please, though, note that I didn't single any particular person out. If you aren't holding those who practice differently from you in contempt, then it was not directed at you.

My comments on the nursery were just that: comments. Not intended to poke anyone or intimate that anyone was wrong if they didn't do it "our" way. I have stated and will continue to state that matters like that fall under the discretion of the pastor and congregation of each individual church. Whether a church has a nursery or not, whether a church has youth pastors, assistant pastors or not, whether a church uses green carpet or wood floors in their auditorium or not....that falls under the perview of each local church - in the name of the liberty which we have in Christ. SWIM?

[HappyChristian]

First of all, I realize your comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but, you have a "stage?" Why not a platform and pulpit? Are you entertaining, rather than preaching?
Second of all, if someone truly "listens to God," he'll tell them to keep the family together and not to separate them! He won't lead someone one way and someone else another! That's confusion and we all know God's not the author of confusion! He never leads contrary to His word!

You're right, God is not the author of confusion. And He never leads contrary to His Word. But not every church is going to be run the same way! We have a very large church, with a college. Does your church? Please, I am not being smart alecky - I'm serious. If your church does not, then are we in sin because we do? Did God lead us wrongly because He didn't lead your pastor to found a college?

Where in the Bible does it say that families must remain all together at all times while in church? I really would like to know, honestly!

[John81]

Excellent verses, Josh. PrOBlem is they have no bearing on this current discussion. In effect you were telling me to be silent. But this isn't a church setting nor a Bible class (ergo, I am usurping no man's authority...in fact, I'm a moderator under BroMatt's request and my hubby's permission...). It is a forum for fellowship with likeminded believers. Fellowship isn't always sweetness and light, I know that. But neither is it necessary to belittle. By all means, call a spade a spade, but please try and remember that God works with us all differently. My pastor follows God's leading for our particular church. Your pastor does the same. Jerry8, as pastor, does also. As do the other men on this forum who are pastors. Is the leading always and ever the same? Doctrinally, yes, if we follow the Bible. Church practice, not necessarily so. We are given liberty as believers. That liberty allows us freedoms to operate within the bounds of that liberty. SWIM?

I'm only asking for the sake of discussion so take it as such. I know your stance on the First Timothy 2 verses but I also know many other Chistians/pastors/churches view this and other passages as applying as a part of overall biblical principle to be applied in all areas of life. Which view is doctrinally correct and why?

[OFIB Preacher]

In light of history it's very interesting to take note of the many things churches think they have to have today and that many Christians demand that churches must have today in order to make them "good churches".

For nearly 2,000 years families gathered together to worship God, hear the Word preached and expounded upon, sing glorifying songs to the Lord and have fellowship. This was all done together, often in a simple home, a one or two room church, or even in outdoor venues.

Today it's proclaimed churches must have nurseries, childrens church, 'active' Sunday school, youth groups, women's activities, activities for seniors, skits and plays, singles groups, divorced groups, sound systems, multi-media, movie events, entertaining programs, special events throughout the year, up-to-date A/C and heating systems, special lighting, parking assistance, trained security personel inside and outside the church, internet, refreshments, etc.

I'm certainly not saying all these things are bad or that some might not even be beneficial, but they are not necessities. Bible believing churches are dying all the time because they don't have the funds for all these "necessities" that Christians demand. The only Baptist church this town once had failed to really take off and eventually closed because of this. Outreach efforts constantly heard the same retorts of "If...your church had youth programs...more entertainment...special things for women...more children for Sunday school...maybe if they had a nursery, etc." Nothing about what was actually preached, nothing about doctrinal statements, always outright rejection of that Baptist church because they didn't have all the "necessities" Christians demand.

Since some may want to read too much into this and jump to erronious conclusions, I'm NOT saying all churches should meet in some sort of old style church consisting of a sanctuary with hard wooeden pews, windows for air, two pot belly stoves for heat and maybe a room in the back.

A sad situation, but an excellent post!
AMEN!

[OFIB Preacher]

I agree and disagree

Absolutely children should learn the Word of God at home. However, to say that if a father does teach his children the Bible at home they will have a good relationship with the Lord isn't necessarily true. That child may or may not accept the Lord.

At the same time, that same child may or may not accept the Lord through preaching at church as well.

I don't know about the use of the term "right" but as I've stated before, I praise God for those churches who do have Christ-centered childrens programs just as I praise God for those churches where the whole congregation meets together in a Christ-centered manner.

Most important is that whichever the approach, it's the intent that Christ be taught and the Gospel presented in the hope that all, regardless of age, will come to Christ and be discipled in Christ.

I agree, with your disagreement!

[HappyChristian]

I'm only asking for the sake of discussion so take it as such. I know your stance on the First Timothy 2 verses but I also know many other Chistians/pastors/churches view this and other passages as applying as a part of overall biblical principle to be applied in all areas of life. Which view is doctrinally correct and why?

Doctrinally, these verses are teaching some church polity. In Corinthians, women were disrupting services, and so were told to ask their husbands at home. I know of churches now where women don't even vote in business meetings, because they believe that this applies even to that. I wouldn't disagree with them, either. But! If we were to apply the general principle to everything in life, then women couldn't say anything at all when any men were in the room.

Do you discuss the Bible at your weekly Bible study? Are the women allowed to ask questions or make comments? I would venture to say that, yes, you do, and they are. Well, if that passage were to be blanket applied to all of life, they would be disOBedient to scripture. SWIM?

[John81]

Doctrinally, these verses are teaching some church polity. In Corinthians, women were disrupting services, and so were told to ask their husbands at home. I know of churches now where women don't even vote in business meetings, because they believe that this applies even to that. I wouldn't disagree with them, either. But! If we were to apply the general principle to everything in life, then women couldn't say anything at all when any men were in the room.

Do you discuss the Bible at your weekly Bible study? Are the women allowed to ask questions or make comments? I would venture to say that, yes, you do, and they are. Well, if that passage were to be blanket applied to all of life, they would be disOBedient to scripture. SWIM?

Why are you always swimming?

I wasn't referring to the women be silent verse but the principle of women and leadership/headship/authority over men. Some proclaim these verses are a part of the overall biblical principle that women are not to be in any leadership positions over men in any aspect of life.

[Pastor Matt]

First of all, I realize your comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but, you have a "stage?" Why not a platform and pulpit? Are you entertaining, rather than preaching?

Yes I am glad you realized that was tongue-in-cheek, sometimes it is hard to convey things like that online.
Large churches I preach has a stage otherwise they would never see the preacher. Smaller churches is sometimes just a pulpit on the floor. If I am preaching in a School, they have a stage. Around this part of the country a stage is not entertainment, but rather a raised floor for a speaker to speak.

Second of all, if someone truly "listens to God," he'll tell them to keep the family together and not to separate them! He won't lead someone one way and someone else another! That's confusion and we all know God's not the author of confusion! He never leads contrary to His word!

Before we go any further I need to know where you draw the line. If what you say is all across the board, then every church would be exactly the same with the same programs,same building structure, same color, etc. Where is the line drawn? It is clearly in Scripture that God has different plans for each people. Pastors today is the same way.

[HappyChristian]

Why are you always swimming?

I wasn't referring to the women be silent verse but the principle of women and leadership/headship/authority over men. Some proclaim these verses are a part of the overall biblical principle that women are not to be in any leadership positions over men in any aspect of life.

SWIM means "see what I mean." I do go to our church's pool 2-3 times a week, though. It's great!

The silence part is integral to the rest of it, though. Why is a woman to be silent? Because not doing so is usurping authority. So, the question is - where does the silence come in? In exactly the settin in which Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, set it: the church assembly.

The verses that teach that each woman is to be subject to her own husband take care of the rest of it. In our church, I teach in a Sunday School class (third grade!). As such, I am, to a certain degree, subject to the pastor who is in charge of ministries (who, in turn, is subject to our preacher). BUT!!! My husband has the final say, and gave it when he gave permission for me to teach in the class. SWIM (there I am swimming again )?

It's the same when a woman has a jOB (I know the feelings of many on this matter, and don't mean to stir up another rabbit trail ). IF her hubby has given permission (or even required her) to hold a jOB, then he is extending his authority to her employer - but, again, her final authority is her husband. If the employer begins to require things the husband doesn't like or doesn't allow, he can tell her to quit (fortunately, all I have to do is tell my boss that my husband said no, and she backs right down...).

My husband is the only one I Biblically answer to - and, as I said, if he extends that authority for me to teach in a class, or at a jOB. But I am still under his authority and act accordingly. No other man has any authority over me, so I am not usurping a man's authority...unless I am disOBeying and preaching or teaching a mixed class in a church assembly.

[Pastor Matt]

Since some may want to read too much into this and jump to erronious conclusions, I'm NOT saying all churches should meet in some sort of old style church consisting of a sanctuary with hard wooeden pews, windows for air, two pot belly stoves for heat and maybe a room in the back.

I understand that you may think some of these type of things are erroneous, but the prOBlem is nOBody knows where you are drawing the line. At what point does it become erroneous? All of those things have a part in the Worship, so where is the line drawn? I think a discussion along these lines would be beneficial to OB.

[John81]

SWIM means "see what I mean." I do go to our church's pool 2-3 times a week, though. It's great!

The silence part is integral to the rest of it, though. Why is a woman to be silent? Because not doing so is usurping authority. So, the question is - where does the silence come in? In exactly the settin in which Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, set it: the church assembly.

The verses that teach that each woman is to be subject to her own husband take care of the rest of it. In our church, I teach in a Sunday School class (third grade!). As such, I am, to a certain degree, subject to the pastor who is in charge of ministries (who, in turn, is subject to our preacher). BUT!!! My husband has the final say, and gave it when he gave permission for me to teach in the class. SWIM (there I am swimming again )?

It's the same when a woman has a jOB (I know the feelings of many on this matter, and don't mean to stir up another rabbit trail ). IF her hubby has given permission (or even required her) to hold a jOB, then he is extending his authority to her employer - but, again, her final authority is her husband. If the employer begins to require things the husband doesn't like or doesn't allow, he can tell her to quit (fortunately, all I have to do is tell my boss that my husband said no, and she backs right down...).

My husband is the only one I Biblically answer to - and, as I said, if he extends that authority for me to teach in a class, or at a jOB. But I am still under his authority and act accordingly. No other man has any authority over me, so I am not usurping a man's authority...unless I am disOBeying and preaching or teaching a mixed class in a church assembly.

I'm not up on all the texting and other abreviations.

Your church has a pool! Are you Roman or Philistine?

There is a vast difference between teaching a third grade Sunday school class or working at the bakery with hubbys approval and holding political office where whoever holds that office has authority over men.

[John81]

I understand that you may think some of these type of things are erroneous, but the prOBlem is nOBody knows where you are drawing the line. At what point does it become erroneous? All of those things have a part in the Worship, so where is the line drawn? I think a discussion along these lines would be beneficial to OB.

The erroneous statement was so that no one would think I'm advocating what I wasn't there. I didn't want anyone jumping to an erroneous conclusion which I hadn't stated.

As I said in that post, all those things I mentioned that American Christians today call necessities really are not necessities but I also pointed out that doesn't mean they are all bad either.

Indeed, a discussion of this could be profitible. I've known of churches which have had major prOBlems over everything from the use of AC and fans to the color of carpeting!

Some churches seem to deal with these sorts of issues pretty well while for others the church descends into a brawl over them.