A few questions on predestination

[JerryNumbers]

If I raised some puppies for the sole purpose of torturing them to death slowly just for the thrill of it, what whould happen to me if I got caught? What do we call folk like that...sadistic?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What am I saying?
I'm saying that, according to Genesis 3:22, even an ungodly reprOBate knows right from wrong. Even a heathen should know that a god who would create some to fry in Hell for the sole purpose of enjoying it, isn't right. So me thinks that anyone who would devise such a wicked, perverted system of belief as TULIP theology, must have a 'darkened' heart because they actually take the name of Jesus Christ and misrepresent his very character. The REAL Lord Jesus of the Bible unselfishly GAVE himself for the whole world, not just a select few. Calvinism has another Jesus, my friends.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

I agree. Some verses I think about at such times as these.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

[anime4christ]

Interesting.......do you have a chapter and verse which states or even implies that "nothing happens without God's will"?

....and....Did God cause the brothers' intentions to be evil?

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. - Matthew 10:29

[heartstrings]

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. - Matthew 10:29

Please understand: Matthew 10:29 is not saying that God is doing anything to these sparrows: in the context, God is saying that teh Father even cares when a seemingly worthless sparrow is sold and exploited. Then it says that God cares FAR MORE for his persecuted children than MANY sparrows.

So, back on the subject
When you sin, it's because YOU want to do it. Not because God WILLED you to do it.

[anime4christ]

Please understand: Matthew 10:29 is not saying that God is doing anything to these sparrows: in the context, God is saying that teh Father even cares when a seemingly worthless sparrow is sold and exploited. Then it says that God cares FAR MORE for his persecuted children than MANY sparrows.

So, back on the subject
When you sin, it's because YOU want to do it. Not because God WILLED you to do it.

I agree with that, just two things I want to point out: 1) The verse I quoted is also saying that God is in control of even such small events such as birds dying; not one can die without Him. 2) When we only think of and want to do something evil, we have already sinned, before we do the action. If we merely hate someone, we are already fully guilty of murder, before the event actually takes place. The only sins that are fulfilled beyond the heart are those that coincided with God's plan of events to happen. God does not have a moral responsibility to any of us, it is only by His mercy that we are still living and breathing. If He wants to crush someone, He will not sin in doing so because we already deserve to be crushed. Therefore, if a man murders someone or even if he wants to, he is fully guilty of murder already, yet if it is not God's will for the victim to die at that point, he won't, but if it is, the victim will die, but God will not have sinned.

[heartstrings]

I agree with that, just two things I want to point out: 1) The verse I quoted is also saying that God is in control of even such small events such as birds dying; not one can die without Him. 2) When we only think of and want to do something evil, we have already sinned, before we do the action. If we merely hate someone, we are already fully guilty of murder, before the event actually takes place. The only sins that are fulfilled beyond the heart are those that coincided with God's plan of events to happen. God does not have a moral responsibility to any of us, it is only by His mercy that we are still living and breathing. If He wants to crush someone, He will not sin in doing so because we already deserve to be crushed. Therefore, if a man murders someone or even if he wants to, he is fully guilty of murder already, yet if it is not God's will for the victim to die at that point, he won't, but if it is, the victim will die, but God will not have sinned.

And who makes one entertain that sinful thought? It's your own choice right? Happens in the heart, right?
The Bible says that "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness..." You can be saved by admitting that you are a hopless helpless sinner deserving of Hell, and simply trusting Jesus in your heart...by making a choice in your heart just the same as you can entertain an evil thought in your heart. The only action or WORK needed was the finished work of Christ, and that has been done. The Holy Ghost does the calling when one hears the Word of God.
I'm going to use Felix as an example again.....

Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
If you will look up "sin, righteousness, and judgement" you will find that these are the workings of the Holy Spirit.
Felix heard the Word of God as Paul was giving the Gospel and the Holy Spirit was convicting him of sin, righteousness and judgment. In case you haven't thought of this, the Holy Spirit is God. So God was working, trying to woo Felix as Felix heard the Word, but Felix said........NO
Felix was free to make a choice.

[Revelation3:20]

yet who are you to say what God can and can not do? God raised Pharaoh for one very purpose. What if God made vessels fitted for destruction, so that he might make know the riches of HIS GLORY on vessels of mercy? Which he had AFORE prepared unto glory. Therefore HE will have Mercy on whom HE chooses to have Mercy. Who are you to question how or for what purpose the Potter has made the Clay? Take a good hard look at the verses above. They are quite clear on who's will is in control.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions

[Reformation Man35]

I agree. Some verses I think about at such times as these.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Haha, wow. And who are you so wisely rejecting and saying is subverted, sinning and being condemned? This should be interesting.

[heartstrings]

Haha, wow. And who are you so wisely rejecting and saying is subverted, sinning and being condemned? This should be interesting.

How many admonitions have you had? And yet you seem to think it's a joke.

[Reformation Man35]

How many admonitions have you had? And yet you seem to think it's a joke.

What I think is a joke, is the pharisaical attitude the both of you have. Who exactly do you think you are posting any kind of disciplinary scripture verse up such as this? You haven't even followed the correct protocol concerning any kind of "sinning" brother. In which I by no means am sinning. I will respect the behavioral protocol of this independent Baptist forum but will I will not stand for is the both of you appearing as if your some kind of elder of mine to rebuke me as if I am in your fold. This forum is made for discussion and disagreement at times. So I would suggest you come down off your internet theological high chair and come back down earth with the rest of the sinners saved by the blood. Now, with that said, I hope we can agree to disagree on matters of certain matters of theology.

[anime4christ]

I agree. Some verses I think about at such times as these.

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Wow, somehow I missed this post the first time. Are you suggesting that people like Luther, Spurgeon, Whitefield, and Edwards were heretics and are in Hell now?

Anyway, that is way off topic if you ask me. I don't like the direction this thread is taking now. Instead of providing answers to the more detailed questions I posted, all I get is being called a heretic and suspicion of hiding some sin.

[John81]

It is true that many will have an instant reaction when certain labels are put into play. I've seen Christians who believe in "once saved, always saved" turn against that very belief when it's pointed out to them that someone who holds "Calvinists" views believes the same thing. How ridiculous!

The fact is that we can't know 100% just exactly how much is predestinated and how much isn't. We can know that since God is supreme, whatever is predestinated is done so by Him.

Other than those who go to extremes, this issues isn't of dire importance. Spurgeon was a "Calvinist" and yet he was also a great evangelist and solid biblical preacher of the Gospel.

[JerryNumbers]

Answers have been given many times but not accepted. And its clear in the Bible what man is to do under such circumstances, and I posted it.

Some under this topic are trying to make God something He is not, the one you leads man to do sinful acts. That certain people do not have a choice, that certain people cannot be saved. Its a fact sin is the choice of each person, whosoever will can be saved.

Plain and simple, if its God's will for a man to rape and murder the young woman, them God is responsible for that sin, not the man who commits it.

Its a fact each human is responsible for the sin they do, they will give account to God for all of their sins.

If it was God's will for man to commit sin, them God would be the instigator, responsible for sin, not man, a just God would not hold men responsible for sin that He willed them to do.

[anime4christ]

@John: Exactly. This is not something worth killing each other for, or calling each other heretics for. Most well known solid preachers I know of today call themselves Calvinists as well. I only mentioned those who are already dead because I've noticed people here complain more about the ones who are alive, such as Piper, Washer, and MacArthur. If I remember correctly, even Ray Comfort, who is possibly more dedicated to spreading the Gospel than any great preacher I know, is a Calvinist as well. There were/are solid Arminians as well, such as John Wesley, so there's no need to cast stones at either side.

@Jerry80871852: I'm not sure if you noticed, but in my latest few posts, especially those replying to the other Jerry, I was trying to find out exactly where we are disagree, and why. From what I understand, you also believe in predetermination of some sort (eg. major events), but I'm trying to figure out to which extent. Not something worthy of being called a heretic for, IMHO.

That said, I really don't believe any sane person truly holds any of the extremes of either system. For example, when we witness to a person, do Calvinists tell them simply that if God chose you He will save you, end of story? No, Calvinists preach the Gospel as well, and plead with people to repent and believe. Now, I have heard some Calvinists say something like in the question I posted, but they are very few; most Calvinists preach the Gospel in a more passionate way than I have seen most Arminians do. On the other hand, do Arminians pray to God that He might somehow set up some circumstances by which it might be most likely that a given person might be saved and then just hope for the best? No, most people I have met cry out to God "Lord, save this person! Change his heart!"

I believe that somehow, at least subconsciously, we all believe that God is in control of absolutely everything and we cry out to Him like it is all dependent on Him, yet what would be the use of crying out like that if our cries change nothing? The fact that we even pray shows that we believe that our prayers affect things as well. Finally, when we witness to people, we plead with them like it all depends on them. How is this so? This behavior is completely contradicting to human logic, yet it reflects the truth: God is absolutely sovereign, but it is we who choose to accept or reject His grace and therefore are responsible for our choices.

[Psalms18_28]

Whenever we have something in common about Christ dying for our sins, It is very hard to share the gospel with someone when someone else chime in and bring up calvinism because we are wrong on how we interpret the Gospel of Christ.

[JerryNumbers]

You seem to keep taking the free will of man from him, thus making God responsible for all sin. That is false teaching. You cannot take the free will of man away from him, them say everything evil man does without making God responsible for man's sin.

I do not know any Calvinist pastors personally, all pastors I know reject it as false and dangerous teachings. But it seems on the rise for it keeps being brought up here. I might add in case you don't know this, it seems most churches who call their self reformed are Calvinist in belief.

I understand too, that Calvinist Churches do not offer invitations at the end of their services. You can figure that one out.

Go back to the garden, its easy to understand that both Adam and Eve by their very own choice, free will, chose to disOBey God. And man has been doing so ever since.