A few questions on predestination

[JerryNumbers]

It prOBably wasn't commented on because it would be a waste of time, that is why I didn't respond to it. Debates with those coming from a calvinist perspective never seem to accomplish anything or go anywhere. If your truly interested in a view of romans 9 other than what calvinism would give look around online, I am sure you can find something pretty easily. There has been a great deal of discussion/arguments about that chapter over the years.

Right, its been explained, why go through it again. Edited March 19, 2010 by Jerry80871852

[JerryNumbers]

All I'm saying is that what is known today as modern Arminianism is a false teaching.

Point is, modern day people who have gone off on a rabbit trail teaching something that is not biblical love to call true Bible teachings modern day teachings. I suppose for some of them that is their way of trying to discredit true Bible teachings with hope that they will have influence on some and they will come join them in their false teachings.

And if you saying what was posted by Heartstrings is false teaching, them you do not accept true Bible teachings, so there is no one here who can help you. Why do I say no one here can help you, the truth has been pointed out for you more than 3 times, you keep rejecting it.

[heartstrings]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. No, God is righteous; everything He does is right and just.all of His attributes, merciful, righteous, holy, just, true etc. stem from what He is ....pure love. Bear that in mind.


15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. And just who does God will to take mercy on? The Bible says His will is that ALL should come to repentence. 1 Peter 3:9


16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. It's just saying that it's God shows His mercy of HIS own will, not ours.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. The Bible says that a "man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps". Pharaoh chose to say "NO", God chose the consequences


18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Quite simply, Pharaoh 'sinned away his day of grace'. He hardened his own heart several times until God said that's enough. Then God finally hardened his heart.


19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Not a valid question for anyone to ask: Felix resisted His will, so did Israel, and Jerusalem and sthe scribes and Pharisees. Remember "His will" is that none should perish 1 Peter 3:9


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? These are saying basicly "who are we to judge that God would do right"


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Simply says that God can do whatever He wants with who He wants..and the next verse tells what He wants......


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: God wants us to KNOW that He's all powerful; that He could squash us like an ant, so to speak, at any given time for whatever reason He chooses and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. But in contrast to that, he wants us all to know the great abundance of His mercy, and that He DOES NOT want to do that (see verse 15)and 1 Peter 3:9


23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, And what are "the riches of His glory"? Those riches include peace and JOY in the Holy Ghost, my friend. And "vessels of mercy" is a GROUP that God ordained would enjoy those riches. and If anyone...anyone believes on The Lord Jesus Christ, he/she can become one of these "vessels" who the Potter is working on right now.

However, If you don't trust Jesus as your savior, you are ALREADY condemned. You are indeed a vessel fit for destruction because you come from the same "LUMP" of clay that everyone else does...a Hellbound sinner.

That's the best I can do until I'm shown more light on the subject.

[Psalms18_28]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. No, God is righteous; everything He does is right and just.all of His attributes, merciful, righteous, holy, just, true etc. stem from what He is ....pure love. Bear that in mind.


15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. And just who does God will to take mercy on? The Bible says His will is that ALL should come to repentence. 1 Peter 3:9


16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. It's just saying that it's God shows His mercy of HIS own will, not ours.


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. The Bible says that a "man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps". Pharaoh chose to say "NO", God chose the consequences


18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Quite simply, Pharaoh 'sinned away his day of grace'. He hardened his own heart several times until God said that's enough. Then God finally hardened his heart.


19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? These are saying basicly "who are we to judge that God would do right"


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Simply says that God can do whatever He wants with who He wants..and the next verse tells what He wants......


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: God wants us to KNOW that He's all powerful; that He could squash us like an ant, so to speak, at any given time for whatever reason He chooses and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. But in contrast to that, he wants us all to know the great abundance of His mercy, and that He DOES NOT want to do that (see verse 15)and 1 Peter 3:9


23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, And what are "the riches of His glory"? Those riches include peace and JOY in the Holy Ghost, my friend. And "vessels of mercy" is a GROUP that God ordained would enjoy those riches. and If anyone...anyone believes on The Lord Jesus Christ, he/she can become one of these "vessels" who the Potter is working on right now.

However, If you don't trust Jesus as your savior, you are ALREADY condemned. You are indeed a vessel fit for destruction because you come from the same "LUMP" of clay that everyone else does...a Hellbound sinner.

That's the best I can do until I'm shown more light on the subject.


So, someone please explain to me this verse? I am very curious as to its meaning. Thanks.

[Crushmaster]

Point is, modern day people who have gone off on a rabbit trail teaching something that is not biblical love to call true Bible teachings modern day teachings. I suppose for some of them that is their way of trying to discredit true Bible teachings with hope that they will have influence on some and they will come join them in their false teachings.

And if you saying what was posted by Heartstrings is false teaching, them you do not accept true Bible teachings, so there is no one here who can help you. Why do I say no one here can help you, the truth has been pointed out for you more than 3 times, you keep rejecting it.

Sir, I believe Anime was saying that Arminianism, where one can lose their salvation, is false.
God bless,
Joel.

[Reformation Man35]

If anyone want to study about hardened of the heart, people should study about the finger of God (or God's finger)

[Psalms18_28]

If anyone want to study about hardened of the heart, people should study about the finger of God (or God's finger)

Who is the author of this book?

[anime4christ]

Sir, I believe Anime was saying that Arminianism, where one can lose their salvation, is false.
God bless,
Joel.

That is correct. I was not saying at all that what heartstrings posted was false teaching in any way.

I believe many people here misunderstood me and have put up a guard not to accept anything I said just because I mentioned the word Calvinism. Like I said, I do not call myself a Calvinist, but my sotoriology is virtually identical to that of a form of moderate Calvinism. Also, like I said before, there are IFBs who have a sotoriology that is the same as well. The only difference between this sotoriology and that of the majority of IFBs is that IFBs shy away from answering the question of "who predetermined the actions which God knew from the beginning of time would happen?", and Calvinists of any sort do attempt to answer it.

One more question of reason on this topic is that God knew that satan would fall before He created him because God is all knowing. If God is all powerful as well, would He not be able to create lucifer in a way that he would not sin? Free will in this case is not part of the question, but the question still stands whether or not free will is a component of it or not, because you would have to apply free will to or leave out of both statements. Personally, I believe God is powerful enough to do this with free will, so I am a free will proponent, yet I cannot find another answer to the question than that God did create everything as it is purposely, meaning that He did predetermine every event in history in absolute detail, yet with it being fulfilled by creatures possessing free will.

[anime4christ]

You know, I didn't want to start an argument on Calvinism vs Arminianism vs whatever, but sadly that's what this thread ultimately turned into. I was genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I outlined in the beginning of the thread. Those questions, however, were not answered in any way new to me. Those who did answer them, answered them from the same point of view I have, most likely because they are impossible to answer any other way. Everyone else involved in the discussion did not answer the questions, nor showed them to be invalid questions, which is what I asked for. I do not see then that those questions will be answered on this thread. Therefore, I believe this thread has served its purpose, and I think we should end the discussion here unless someone has something new to add that may answer the original questions. As I do not see that as a possibility, and I see that the discussion might only continue as an unhealthy argument about the wrong things, perhaps we should consider closing this thread down. I do not want contention here, and ultimately, I did not get my questions answered. I do not want it locked, but if it continues as the argument it has mostly been which strayed from the original questions, then I believe it should be closed. What do you guys think?

[Seth Doty]

IFBs shy away from answering the question of "who predetermined the actions which God knew from the beginning of time would happen?", and Calvinists of any sort do attempt to answer it.

As a IFB I don't "shy away" from the question, I and others discard the whole notion that actions must be predetermined in order for God to have foreknowledge as false. Predetermination and foreknowledge are two totally different things. For example, I make this post, I decide to make this post and God did not predetermine that I would make it. I chose to make it and that was my free will choice. The fact that God is omniscient and knew from before time began everything that would happen and every choice I would ever make does not mean that he predetermined it to be so. It simply means God is greater than time and is the Alpha and Omega.

[anime4christ]

As a IFB I don't "shy away" from the question, I and others discard the whole notion that actions must be predetermined in order for God to have foreknowledge as false. Predetermination and foreknowledge are two totally different things. For example, I make this post, I decide to make this post and God did not predetermine that I would make it. I chose to make it and that was my free will choice. The fact that God is omniscient and knew from before time began everything that would happen and every choice I would ever make does not mean that he predetermined it to be so. It simply means God is greater than time and is the Alpha and Omega.

OK, I don't know why I'm replying to this, because it'll just reopen the same can of worms, but here goes:

That leaves us with the conclusion that God made something He knew would happen without meaning to. That is not Biblical however, because the Bible says that He did purposely create everything the way He did. Did He or did He not mean to make creation as it is? The latter is quite a scary notion; it would imply clumsiness in the Creator.

I know this prOBably won't go down well...

[Seth Doty]

One more question of reason on this topic is that God knew that satan would fall before He created him because God is all knowing. If God is all powerful as well, would He not be able to create lucifer in a way that he would not sin? Free will in this case is not part of the question, but the question still stands whether or not free will is a component of it or not, because you would have to apply free will to or leave out of both statements. Personally, I believe God is powerful enough to do this with free will, so I am a free will proponent, yet I cannot find another answer to the question than that God did create everything as it is purposely, meaning that He did predetermine every event in history in absolute detail, yet with it being fulfilled by creatures possessing free will.

Yes, he certainly could have made Lucifer so that he absolutely would not fall, but not if he gave him truly free will. In many ways this question is like the old atheist question asking if God can make a rock so big he couldn't move it(the answer is he could if he wanted to btw). Your asking if God has limits, and he does have limits, but they are all self imposed limits. Free will by very definition is the ability to choose, and if God determined all choices at some point in the past there is no free will for anyone but God. Calvinism and free will are polar opposites, they not compatible. I fail to see how how you could agree with both unless you misunderstand the full implications of each position.

[Seth Doty]

OK, I don't know why I'm replying to this, because it'll just reopen the same can of worms, but here goes:

That leaves us with the conclusion that God made something He knew would happen without meaning to. That is not Biblical however, because the Bible says that He did purposely create everything the way He did. Did He or did He not mean to make creation as it is? The latter is quite a scary notion; it would imply clumsiness in the Creator.

I know this prOBably won't go down well...

Here again your confusing predestination with foreknowledge. Free will for man is God giving man the ability to make choices on his own. God decided to give man and angels free will(although there are apparently some differences between man and angels in the nature of their free will), when man chooses not to follow God he is choosing not to follow God not because God decided that but because the man decided that with the free will God gave him.

[Psalms18_28]

If God is all powerful as well, would He not be able to create lucifer in a way that he would not sin?

That reminds me of a question: Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it? and I say yes he can But he can also lift it too. We can't comprehend God, ever, and anyone think they can is very wrong.

The prOBlem is with Satan, He is not God so that's why he failed to be sinless. My personal belief that after we go to heaven, that's when our actions will be "Predetermined" by God because we let him and trust him.

[Seth Doty]

That reminds me of a question: Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it?

Haaa, we were thinking alike, I just said the same thing. lol