Ishmael's Descendents?

[ptwild]

Who/which is the "great nation" made up of Ismael's descendants spoken of in Genesis 17:20, 21:13 and 21:18? Is it possible that this "great nation" has already came and passed?

[PreacherE]

God was not necessarily prophesying of a specific nation throughout the course of history, but rather was saying that Ishmael's descendants would become a great people in number just as Isaac's descendants.

Today, we can see just how this was fulfilled by looking at all of the Arab peoples as they are the descendants of Ishmael.

[ptwild]

God was not necessarily prophesying of a specific nation throughout the course of history, but rather was saying that Ishmael's descendants would become a great people in number just as Isaac's descendants.

Today, we can see just how this was fulfilled by looking at all of the Arab peoples as they are the descendants of Ishmael.

I have always heard this, but have never seen any Biblical or scholarly evidence of it. Can you point me in the right direction? Would Issac and Ishmael not produce the same ethicity? They were, after all, half brothers.

Also, it seems like Hagar was given this promise as a means of comforting her, which leads me to believe that it was an indication that Ishmael's descendents would be afforded the same protections as that afforded to the Jews. Just some thoughts.

[HappyChristian]

Genesis interchanges references to Ishmaelites and Midianites (those who bought and then sold Joseph).

Later, Gideon was used by God to defeat the Midianites (also interchanged with the term Ishmaelites - see Judges 8).

The Bible tells us that Isaac was the son of promise, not Ishmael. Abraham later had other sons with Keturah, after Sarah died. None of them were the sons of promise either.

They are related, just as the Moabites and Ammonites were (through Lot). Arabs and Hebrews are both Semitic.

[JerryNumbers]

Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Ge 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Ge 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Ge 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Ge 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

The Bible clearly says a great nation

[ptwild]

Genesis interchanges references to Ishmaelites and Midianites (those who bought and then sold Joseph).

Later, Gideon was used by God to defeat the Midianites (also interchanged with the term Ishmaelites - see Judges 8).

The Bible tells us that Isaac was the son of promise, not Ishmael. Abraham later had other sons with Keturah, after Sarah died. None of them were the sons of promise either.

They are related, just as the Moabites and Ammonites were (through Lot). Arabs and Hebrews are both Semitic.

Happy: Of course everything you have stated is true, but just because Issac was the son of promise does not negate the fact that Ishmael was to be a great nation. I'm just curious as to what "nation" that was/is.

[1Timothy115]

Happy: Of course everything you have stated is true, but just because Issac was the son of promise does not negate the fact that Ishmael was to be a great nation. I'm just curious as to what "nation" that was/is.

pt, just how curious are you?

[HappyChristian]

Happy: Of course everything you have stated is true, but just because Issac was the son of promise does not negate the fact that Ishmael was to be a great nation. I'm just curious as to what "nation" that was/is.

No - I don't belive it did negate that he would be a great nation. Abraham was promised that his seed would number like sand, and like the stars - too high to count.

The interesting thing is that Ishmaelites and Midianites are many times interchanged in scritpture - and yet Ishmael was the son of Hagar, and Midian was one of the sons of Keturah.

Remember Moses spent time in the land of Midian, when he fled Egypt, so they were definitely a nation . Some think there is a possibility that it was a confederation of tribes.

[Bakershalfdozen]

I haven't looked this up but I don't think God promised that Ishmael's "great nation" would last like He promised for Isaac. It could be that Ishmael's nation is no longer around.

[1Timothy115]

I haven't looked this up but I don't think God promised that Ishmael's "great nation" would last like He promised for Isaac. It could be that Ishmael's nation is no longer around.

Bakers, I wonder if the Muslims might shed some light on it?

[HappyChristian]

Bakers, I wonder if the Muslims might shed some light on it?

the Muslims believe that the Midianites were wiped out because they stopped worshipping Allah.

[1Timothy115]

the Muslims believe that the Midianites were wiped out because they stopped worshipping Allah.

Happy,
Call me skeptic or just thorough :icon_biggrin: a reference text for the Muslims belief concerning Midianites and maybe something that states Ishmael's decendents were only the Midianites?

[JerryNumbers]

Why is it some of you do not believe this promise to Hagar from God about her son Ishmael of which I have already posted? Quite clearly, it says, "Great Nation."

RE: Ishmael's Descendents?
Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Ge 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Ge 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Ge 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Ge 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

The Bible clearly says a great nation

Clarke:

Twelve princes shall he beget, etc. - See the names of these twelve princes, Ge 25:12-16. From Ishmael proceeded the various tribes of the Arabs, called also Saracens by Christian writers. They were anciently, and still continue to be, a very numerous and powerful people. "It was somewhat wonderful, and not to be foreseen by human sagacity," says Bishop Newton, "that a man's whole posterity should so nearly resemble him, and retain the same inclinations, the same habits, and the same customs, throughout all ages! These are the only people besides the Jews who have subsisted as a distinct people from the beginning, and in some respects they very much resemble each other 1. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, are descended from Abraham, and both boast of their descent from the father of the faithful. 2. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, are circumcised, and both profess to have derived this ceremony from Abraham. 3. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, had originally twelve patriarchs, who were their princes or governors. 4. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, marry among themselves, and in their own tribes. 5. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, are singular in several of their customs, and are standing monuments to all ages of the exactness of the Divine predictions, and of the veracity of Scripture history. We may with more confidence believe the particulars related of Abraham and Ishmael when we see them verified in their posterity at this day. This is having, as it were, ocular demonstration for our faith." See Bp. Newton's Second Dissertation on the Prophecies, and See note on Ge 16:12.

[HappyChristian]

Happy,
Call me skeptic or just thorough :icon_biggrin: a reference text for the Muslims belief concerning Midianites and maybe something that states Ishmael's decendents were only the Midianites?

Maybe both? How's this:

The Midianite chieftains rejected his message of justice, and they were wiped out by an earthquake.

You will find this quote on this page: http://www.ehcweb.ehc.edu/faculty/fkellogg/211u4.htm
Interesting article.

Here's another:

Shuaib