Geneva Bible

[nymusicman]

Yeah, I'm a little curious about the speaking in tongues "ceasing" in the Bible as well.

[Guest Guest]

Yes, ITA...Jerry! :thumb An example of history repeating itself. And, it still does. I will not read or study any Bible (Geneva) or otherwise...that defects from my fundamental beliefs. IMHO, the Geneva Bible in another corruption of Satan. The ole' devil "tries" to get in somehow, and/or some way.

candlelight

[Guest Guest]

I'm also not finding evidence of George Washington ever becoming a Baptist. He was tolerant to other religions as many other people were during that time, aside from the Puritans, but I don't see that he was ever a Baptist.

Do you have any basis for saying that the Salem Witch Trials were the basis for speaking in tongues, as well? From what I've found, tongue-speaking has been something that has occurred in both Christian and non-Christian circles since before the time of Christ right up to the present. There is also no evidence that it ceased in the book of Acts. I know this is something that most Baptists will claim, but there isn't any Biblical evidence for it. If they had ceased, there would have been no reason for Paul to instruct as to there proper usage.

Hi kevinmiller and nymusicman...First of all...you won't find evidence of George Washington and his wife Martha becoming Baptists on any "secular" site. The Internet is useless for this type of thing. The modern world loves to deprive us of the truth...especially, when it involves "true" Christianity. So, you can forget about the Wikepedia Encyclopedia or other such references...b/c they won't state the truth. As I mentioned to ptwild...the book, "America's God and Country" by William J. Federer (note the correction in the spelling of his last name)...is a great place to start for the truth. "The Baptists in America"...I will have to look up the name of the author. Also, "Pilgrim's progress" by John Bunyan is another source for good historical information. Other books written by historian, David Barton of TV's "American Experience" will also give valuable & accurate information. One such book of his is..."America's Godly Heritage". As I told ptwild...I will ask the evangelist for more sources. I will tell you this, though...that a man named JOHN GANO was George Washington's Chaplain in the American Revolutionary Army. He baptized George Washington-upon his conversion...in the Patomic River. John Gano was an inventor, who invented the plow for farmers. Gano later went to NYC to start the first Baptist church in NYC. BTW, the very first Baptist church was in Providence, Rhode Island. The second was in Newport, Rhode Island. Also note that the very first Jewish Synagogue was in Rhode Island...as well.

Next... 95% of all modern Bibles come from the Vatican Bible. :thumbdown This is the very particular reason that I don't trust the Geneva Bible or any other version other than the KJV 1611 AV. There are over 40,000 word changes in modern Bibles. So, with this in mind...you will only get the "truth" in scriptures on "Speaking in Tongues" for example from the KJV. The NIV is perverted, to say the very least. It takes out the "blood" scriptures...and, IFB's upon salvation...are sealed in the precious blood of Jesus Christ. We don't believe in loss of salvation (when a person is truly born-again), speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc. This is against the clear teaching of the scripture. "Speaking in Tongues" was temporary in the purpose of founding the church...and, NOT necessary or given today.

God gives spiritual gifts to all believers. They are:[/b

1) Prophecy - perception, to discern the motives of others. I like to call people with this gift...those that see in black & white w/ no grey in between. Everything is cut and dry.

2) Serving - demonstrating love in deeds by meeting the practical needs of others.

3) Teaching - one who instructs, explains the truth such that others undertand it for their own use.

4) Exhortation - one who urges to action; encourages and comforts.

5) Giving - giving liberally with pure motives to meet other's needs. Sharing.

6) Administration - the capacity to manage details of service function within the church.

7) Mercy - to feel with the misery of another and to show sympathy by action.

Notice that their are 7 spiritual gifts - The Lord's perfect Number.

Sign gifts were restricted to the Apostolic Period. Please read and study the following scriptures for proof. You will need to use a KJV 1611 AV for your study...b/c all other Bibles will leave out valuable information or add to it. It won't be accurate in other words.

I Corinthians 14 (The most information on the subject).

Then, read and study...John 3:5...Romans 8:9...Romans 12:6-8...I corinthians 12:13...I corinthians 13:8-13...Ephesians 1:13...Ephesians 2:20...Ephesians 4:11-12...Ephesians 5:18...Hebrews 2:3-4. KJV 1611 AV.

Yes, the "Salem Witch Trials" was the first evidence of the modern "speaking in tongues" movement in this country. Then, at The Azuzu Street Mission in Chicago, Illinois...was where it really took off in America. This was in the 1940's. A woman was hysterical, and the tongues movement went wild. Note that on both these occasions: it was women who instigated the "speaking in tongues". I don't have any problem saying this b/c I am a woman...but, as you know, woman are very emotional beings. I can only think of Eve in the Garden of Eden being tempted by Satan. Men, by nature...are not as emotional as women are. Men are practical...and, want to solve problems...not vent about them. That is fact. Women have to keep our emotions in check, otherswise...well, you know? This is evidenced so many times in Bible history. That is why men are to be preachers and women are to be teachers. And, that is yet another thread. This is what the Bible clearly instructs, though. :thumb

Because of Calvary,



candlelight :smile

P.S. ~ As far as "speaking in Tongues" outside of mainstream Christianty? Well...the word paganism comes to mind here. I will find out more information if you care to know. Oh...and, someone mentioned "Fox's Book of Martyrs"...that is an excellent book on how Chistians were murdered for the cause of Jesus Christ.

[nymusicman]

Just to let you know I am 1611 AV only. But I will also let you know that the Geneva Bible has no attachment what so ever to the Vaticanus (Vatican Manuscript).

Secondly, coming from the pentecostal beliefs to Baptist beliefs, as you can imagine I've had to question just about every way I've practiced Christianity. Of course tongues comes back up, I've looked over the scriptures and read the arguments, and I still see no where that tongues couldn't potentially still be used today. Now that doesn't mean the way they are being used and what is known as tongues today is the same thing. Absolutely not. The scripture doesn't support it. But nowhere else can I see that the scripture supports it not still existing. In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul talks about prophecy being a gift more worth having. He talks about the tongues only being used for very specific reasons and just who/what the tongues should be used for. No where did he say, stop using them, they no longer exist and this is an occult practice.

I think the pentecostal use tongues like catholics use baptism. Incorrectly. And as we all know just because catholics use baptism incorrectly, doesn't mean baptism ceases to exist for the whole church. Same for tongues.

[kevinmiller]

Some good posts there, NY. The Geneva is not a modern Bible and actually predated the KJV. It comes from the same text sources and is very similar to the KJV. In some instances, it is actually clearer than the KJV(nobody stone me ).

I find it somewhat troubling that I'm expected not to trust any "secular" sources for information. In my opinion, this is how cults often are. "Listen to our leaders, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong." That's fine if it's something that is coming from the Bible but I will trust a general consensus on history far before I would trust someone who is most likely to be biased in one direction or another. I'm assuming that everyone who claims that George Washington was a Baptist are Baptists themselves and I can hardly trust them to make a sound judgment when they are the only ones making such a claim.

Also, where did you get that 95% of Bibles come from the Vatican Bible? Maybe from the same text family? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Roman Church first canonize the Bible with the books that we have in our modern Bibles, including the KJV?

Can you post references for your list of spiritual gifts and the reason you left out tongues?

I think you will find that many other Christians throughout history were known to speak in tongues at times. And not just Catholics or Pentecostals. Pentecostals have taken it way way too far, but have we been wrong in throwing them out altogether? This is something else I've been turning over in my mind and trying to view in light of Scripture recently. Oftentimes, when someone grows up in one sort of church their whole life or shortly after salvation, it is difficult to view things as objectively. I have found myself challenged and old preconceived ideas challenged many many times in the last month. I think it's a very healthy thing, spiritually, to really look at things from a different perspective once in a while to make sure you believe what is actually right.

Getting back to tongues, I have always been 100% against them and they always have, and still do, creep me out. I heard tongue-speaking for the first time on Sunday and it totally freaked me out. But then I have to wonder, am I freaked out in my spirit or is it because I'm so unaccustomed to it and have always feared it so much that it comes as a shock to my mind? Then when you have it explained from a non-Pentecostal point-of-view, it makes you realize that maybe the people that do it aren't quite as crazy as you once thought. It was always easy for me to brush over certain verses in 1 Corinthians 14 because it just didn't feel right and I didn't want to go that far in challenging what I had grown up with and believing.

But then I really have to look at it objectively, every verse. The first thing that I realized was that the Church at Corinth was most likely using tongues in an unbalanced way, perhaps similarly to Pentecostals. Yet, Paul didn't separate from them and he didn't even freak out about it. He gave them instruction but it wasn't like he got scared and feared a demonic presence or influence. People get caught up in emotions or desire to have spiritual gifts that are grander than what they might have actually been given. The human mind is an unfathomable mystery. Then again, if it's done decently and in order....then what?

The people that have done it here, and it's not often, have been in fervent prayer with God. From a friend who explained her own experience, she was praying extremely hard about something and when she thought to speak Korean, another language came out that she had no idea what it was. Now, could her mind have been muddled by the intense strain of her mind in prayer? Possibly, and that could be one explanation. But could it have been from God? Again, possibly so.

Why? Because I have yet to see a verse that says that tongues have ceased, or any other spiritual gift. Verse 2 of chapter 14 in 1 Corinthians says that when you speak in an unknown tongue, you are speaking unto God because your spirit is speaking. Then in verse 14, he says that if he prays in an unknown tongue, then his understanding is unfruitful. Therefore, he prays in the spirit and with his understanding. So he's saying that it is better to pray with your spirit and with your understanding, yet clearly states that it is an unknown tongue, a language that is not known. What is it then? A spiritual language of some sort, one must assume.

Finally, in verse 39, he tells them to not forbid the speaking of tongues, under the condition of verse 40 that it be done in order.

This was an exhortation to the whole church, not to just the apostles and it just as applicable to the rest of us.

After considering these things, I began to wonder- why is is that I've never seen this happen in an American church or amongst Baptists that I've grown up around? How is it that so many Christians don't experience this if it is still happening today? But there are two things to consider. The Christians in the NT had much greater faith than Christians today and God will not bless you with any sort of gift unless you are willing and have the faith to receive and believe in it. That's one possibility and not always going to be the case since not everyone receives the same gift. Another possibility is that we really don't know how to pray. The people here pray with such passion that it can make one feel very awkward coming from a background where prayer has always been very sensible and almost mechanical, like you might be talking to your business manager rather than an incredibly awesome, majestic God that gave His all for us and has the power to grant any request.

These are just a couple of thoughts and I would like to hear what everyone else thinks about it. But please, only those who really want to discuss it, threads on this topic have sometimes degenerated into "your a charismatic" name-calling sessions and I don't want this to become that. So let's enjoy this discussion as brothers and sisters. :smile

[Jerry]

1 Corinthians 14 doesn't speak at all about propheCy - it uses the word, propheSy, which means to preach or witness.

1 Corinthians 13 states this:

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So there is at least one passage that speaks of the signs gifts being of a temporary nature. Also, all the instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 regarding tongues fit for foreign languages being used in the church. In fact, there are some references that can only fit foreign languages - you can't learn a supernatural gift (that God quite clearly states He didn't give to everyone in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30), but you can learn a foreign language.

[Jerry]

Also' date=' where did you get that 95% of Bibles come from the Vatican Bible? Maybe from the same text family? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Roman Church first canonize the Bible with the books that we have in our modern Bibles, including the KJV?[/quote']

Basically almost every single modern version came from Catholic manuscripts, such as the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus - that is documented fact. There are a few that do not, such as Jay Green's translations (though they do have their own problems).

The Bible was put together and used as such by the true believers long before the Catholic church arose.



I think you would have a VERY hard time proving that from any sound source. All the church history books I have ever read indicate quite clearly that there were no tongues in Christendom except by several cults (Quakers are one) UNTIL 1900 or 1901.



Acts 2 speaks about tongues unknown to the speakers - languages that they did not know previously. 1 Corinthians 14 speaks about human languages unknown to the hearers.

Another thing, Paul is rebuking their selfishness (ie. the gifts were to be for the edifying of the whole church gathered together), not endorsing any kind of private tongue (which the Scriptures do not teach anywhere).



We don't forbid foreign languages being used in the church - according to the rules set down in Scripture; however, we certainly do forbid this charismatic false fire.



Nowhere in the Bible where this is stated - your flawed opinion only. God gives spiritual gifts as He wills, nowhere indicating it is based on someone's level of faith.

[ptwild]

Kevin: Congratulations on your recent revelation to challenge your preconceived notions and to actually search for the truth. That's the first step to spiritual maturity.

The Bible was put together and used as such by the true believers long before the Catholic church arose.

Jerry, this is a very interesting assertion that I'm interested in studying. Do you have any refrences?

and yes' date=' it is very much like the Catholic church.[/quote']

Another interesting assertion. How is the Anglican Church like the Catholic Church? I don't know all that much about the Catholic church, other than that our services look very similar. But Germans look similar to Americans, and they are still two very distinct sets of peoples.

[Jerry]

King Henry the 8th, a devout Catholic, started the Anglican church so he could divorce his wives - which the RC religion wouldn't let him do. He never totally broke away from them - and the Anglican church was never a Protestant denomination. Right from the start they believed in many things contrary to the Scriptures. Yes, there were individuals such as the Puritans that opposed much doctrinal corruption (though how sound they were overall, I don't know - many of them believed in Calvinism).

I grew up nominal Catholic. In my teen years I was forced to take Catechism, etc. from both churches/religions (yes, I think the RC church is another religion, not a true Christian denomination) - so I saw firsthand how similar they were to each other.

[ptwild]

King Henry the 8th' date=' a devout Catholic, started the Anglican church so he could divorce his wives - which the RC religion wouldn't let him do. He never totally broke away from them - and the Anglican church was never a Protestant denomination. Right from the start they believed in many things contrary to the Scriptures. Yes, there were individuals such as the Puritans that opposed much doctrinal corruption (though how sound they were overall, I don't know - many of them believed in Calvinism).[/quote']

I know that it is popular to think that Henry VIII started the Anglican Church, and it is true that he made it officially free of Papal authority, but he did not start it. He made himself the head of something that already existed. It existed long before him. The Anglican Church had its own representatives at Nicea and Chalcedon. I think we have went over this before in another thread. Just read any source that does more than skim the surface of Anglicanism and you'll find this. Again I'll ask, how is the Anglican Church like the Catholic Church? What "doctrinal corruption" exists within Anglicanism? I believe that if you laid everything that Baptist believe, next to everything that Anglicans believe, you wouldn't be able to tell which one is which. That is of course, other than infant baptism, which isn't doctrinal considering that it has nothing to do with salvation.

[Guest Guest]

Just to let you know I am 1611 AV only. But I will also let you know that the Geneva Bible has no attachment what so ever to the Vaticanus (Vatican Manuscript).

Secondly, coming from the pentecostal beliefs to Baptist beliefs, as you can imagine I've had to question just about every way I've practiced Christianity. Of course tongues comes back up, I've looked over the scriptures and read the arguments, and I still see no where that tongues couldn't potentially still be used today. Now that doesn't mean the way they are being used and what is known as tongues today is the same thing. Absolutely not. The scripture doesn't support it. But nowhere else can I see that the scripture supports it not still existing. In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul talks about prophecy being a gift more worth having. He talks about the tongues only being used for very specific reasons and just who/what the tongues should be used for. No where did he say, stop using them, they no longer exist and this is an occult practice.

I think the pentecostal use tongues like catholics use baptism. Incorrectly. And as we all know just because catholics use baptism incorrectly, doesn't mean baptism ceases to exist for the whole church. Same for tongues.

As far as the Geneva Bible? Anything, that has any connection to the Anglican Church of England thus attaching itself to the Catholic Church of Rome just plain creeps me out. This Geneva Bible WILL NOT be of any use to me at all. IMHO, I do feel that, it is...as I stated, another way for Satan to attack and "try" to bring down the "true" church of Jesus Christ. Now...that is my heart, mind, and soul talking...so I gather it is the Holy Spirit speaking to me. Like I have stated before...I am a skeptic by nature, therefore... Jesus Christ gives me my answers through prayer. JC is my source through prayer and His word...the KJV Bible. Again, the KJV has served me well so far...I am NOT going to change mid-stream.

I can understand your concerns and questions, nymusicman. I came from a Roman Catholic background. Let's just say...I had no idea what was going on in that "so-called" church...and, I certainly didn't no where my destination was after death. I wasn't raised on Hell and damnation...rather that thing called "puragtory". I could only imagine myself floating around in "limbo land" for years on end...b/c no way was I good enough to get through the Pearly Gates...and, I didn't think I was bad enough to go straight to Hell. The Bible obviously was NEVER taught. Being raised in Vatican II was a blessing b/c of the confusion. This whole "Tongues Movement" seems very confusing to me. I never saw that in the RCC growing up...although, I know it was there. After attending my old IFB church, I was invited to attend a local Pentacostal Church...well, they call themselves Non-Denominational. I went to a Harvest "Halloween" event on Heaven/Hell. It was a wonderful theatrical performance. It opened my eyes to the truth. I continued on attending my IFB church until I began to question my salvation. At that point in time, I went on Wednesday nights...for a brief time...back to the Pentacostal Church, where the Lord convinced me I was saved. The first and the last time I was at the church was where I witnessed the "Speaking in Tongues" and "Slain in the Spirit". It was very spooky to me b/c, again...I wasn't used to that. I had no idea what they were doing, much less what they wer saying. I had never seen this in the IFB church. I questioned this in my own mind. I sought the Lord in prayer, and I believe he gave me my answer. I was taught in my IFB church "We have not because we ask not". That is in The Epistle of James somewhere. The Lord ALWAYS give me an answer. I always thought it was b/c I had trouble giving myself answers, and also listening to the advice of others. Jesus never fails me. :thumb :smile

Well, the last time...I witnessed "Speaking in Tongues" was at another Pentacostal church one Wednesday night, again. A woman from my old IFB church began going to this church...and, began to question her salavtion. She was very depressed...and, I thought that she might even be suicidal. I couldn't understand one word the preacher was saying from the pulpet. I didn't know where I was, for brief minutes there. I kept thinking in my mind...no wonder she is depressed? She and her husband and daughter left that church and unfortunately have not returned anywhere since. That was 3 years ago. My old IFB church expanded...therefore, some people went elsewhere. That wasn't the case w/ my hubby and I...our choice was warrented. I talked in another thread about it. It wasn't because the pastor lacked knowledge on the scripture...oh know...he is a fire-ball...and, knows his Bible.

These are obviously my experiences. However, I know that what I have seen in the scriptures backs it up. It just does...in my mind. Again, the Holy Spirit speaks to everyone's heart. Jesus leads, guides, and directs me in each area of my life...as he does other believers. I will leave you with this scripture...I Corinthians 14:22...Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. KJV 1611 AV. Please continue on in the chapter on "Principles Concerning Tongues". I suppose I can only say that...I truly believe with all of my heart that...Tongues finished because we have the complete word of God at our fingertips. As, I believe that Paul is the Apostle of love...so, I also believe this about the word of God. May God richly bless your spiritual life.

candlelight

[ptwild]

Anything' date=' that has any connection to the Anglican Church of England thus attaching itself to the Catholic Church of Rome just plain creeps me out.[/quote']

I guess you are unaware that the Anglican Church produced the AV 1611. And if you reason that the "Anglican Church of Endland" is attached to the Catholic Church (even though there is no evidence of this whatsoever), then I guess you also reason that the AV 1611 is produced by the Catholic Church (of which there is also no evidence of). Facts and truth will defeat opinion and falsehoods every single time they are in conflict.

[Guest Guest]

Some good posts there, NY. The Geneva is not a modern Bible and actually predated the KJV. It comes from the same text sources and is very similar to the KJV. In some instances, it is actually clearer than the KJV(nobody stone me ).

I find it somewhat troubling that I'm expected not to trust any "secular" sources for information. In my opinion, this is how cults often are. "Listen to our leaders, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong." That's fine if it's something that is coming from the Bible but I will trust a general consensus on history far before I would trust someone who is most likely to be biased in one direction or another. I'm assuming that everyone who claims that George Washington was a Baptist are Baptists themselves and I can hardly trust them to make a sound judgment when they are the only ones making such a claim.

Also, where did you get that 95% of Bibles come from the Vatican Bible? Maybe from the same text family? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Roman Church first canonize the Bible with the books that we have in our modern Bibles, including the KJV?

Can you post references for your list of spiritual gifts and the reason you left out tongues?

I think you will find that many other Christians throughout history were known to speak in tongues at times. And not just Catholics or Pentecostals. Pentecostals have taken it way way too far, but have we been wrong in throwing them out altogether? This is something else I've been turning over in my mind and trying to view in light of Scripture recently. Oftentimes, when someone grows up in one sort of church their whole life or shortly after salvation, it is difficult to view things as objectively. I have found myself challenged and old preconceived ideas challenged many many times in the last month. I think it's a very healthy thing, spiritually, to really look at things from a different perspective once in a while to make sure you believe what is actually right.

Getting back to tongues, I have always been 100% against them and they always have, and still do, creep me out. I heard tongue-speaking for the first time on Sunday and it totally freaked me out. But then I have to wonder, am I freaked out in my spirit or is it because I'm so unaccustomed to it and have always feared it so much that it comes as a shock to my mind? Then when you have it explained from a non-Pentecostal point-of-view, it makes you realize that maybe the people that do it aren't quite as crazy as you once thought. It was always easy for me to brush over certain verses in 1 Corinthians 14 because it just didn't feel right and I didn't want to go that far in challenging what I had grown up with and believing.

But then I really have to look at it objectively, every verse. The first thing that I realized was that the Church at Corinth was most likely using tongues in an unbalanced way, perhaps similarly to Pentecostals. Yet, Paul didn't separate from them and he didn't even freak out about it. He gave them instruction but it wasn't like he got scared and feared a demonic presence or influence. People get caught up in emotions or desire to have spiritual gifts that are grander than what they might have actually been given. The human mind is an unfathomable mystery. Then again, if it's done decently and in order....then what?

The people that have done it here, and it's not often, have been in fervent prayer with God. From a friend who explained her own experience, she was praying extremely hard about something and when she thought to speak Korean, another language came out that she had no idea what it was. Now, could her mind have been muddled by the intense strain of her mind in prayer? Possibly, and that could be one explanation. But could it have been from God? Again, possibly so.

Why? Because I have yet to see a verse that says that tongues have ceased, or any other spiritual gift. Verse 2 of chapter 14 in 1 Corinthians says that when you speak in an unknown tongue, you are speaking unto God because your spirit is speaking. Then in verse 14, he says that if he prays in an unknown tongue, then his understanding is unfruitful. Therefore, he prays in the spirit and with his understanding. So he's saying that it is better to pray with your spirit and with your understanding, yet clearly states that it is an unknown tongue, a language that is not known. What is it then? A spiritual language of some sort, one must assume.

Finally, in verse 39, he tells them to not forbid the speaking of tongues, under the condition of verse 40 that it be done in order.

This was an exhortation to the whole church, not to just the apostles and it just as applicable to the rest of us.

After considering these things, I began to wonder- why is is that I've never seen this happen in an American church or amongst Baptists that I've grown up around? How is it that so many Christians don't experience this if it is still happening today? But there are two things to consider. The Christians in the NT had much greater faith than Christians today and God will not bless you with any sort of gift unless you are willing and have the faith to receive and believe in it. That's one possibility and not always going to be the case since not everyone receives the same gift. Another possibility is that we really don't know how to pray. The people here pray with such passion that it can make one feel very awkward coming from a background where prayer has always been very sensible and almost mechanical, like you might be talking to your business manager rather than an incredibly awesome, majestic God that gave His all for us and has the power to grant any request.

These are just a couple of thoughts and I would like to hear what everyone else thinks about it. But please, only those who really want to discuss it, threads on this topic have sometimes degenerated into "your a charismatic" name-calling sessions and I don't want this to become that. So let's enjoy this discussion as brothers and sisters. :smile

Good afternoon Kevin. :lol Don't worry...I won't stone you. I know your sense of humor...and, besides I also included how emotional women are...b/c it reminds me of my "unjustified" misundertanding when we first started posting together. NO...I don't speak in tongues. The only 2 tongues I have is one that is from the spirit...and, the other is from the flesh. I "try" to combat my "fleshly" tongue...daily. If you knew my hubby and son...they conveniently slip out of the room when they see I am emotional, again. Note my age: A "delicate" 44 at times. As Archie Bunker would say to Edith: "Mental Pause". Or, as my ex-husband would say..."Women have PMS...and, men have women". I do have a sense of humor. :lol :thumb Although. sometimes I get myself in trouble for it. I hope you aren't offended. Kevin. :smile

Well, as far as "secular" information? I was raised in the public school system throughout my life (except during middle school 7-8 grade...I attended parochial school). With that being said...I wasn't raised without prayer in the public schools b/c Ms. Madeline O'Hare stampeded to the US Supreme court prior to my birth in 1964. Basically, except for some good "ole' timers" I was raised by the "hippie" teachers of the 60's and 70's. Open classroom...freedom of speech, liberal freedom of press (in my gradeschool) that proved nothing but failure. My parents were (my mom still is) conservative...from the Great Depression Era. My 17 year old son has been attending public school since 3rd grade (before that... Montessori School) and, I am not at all pleased with what they have taken out of the history textbooks our children use...I also taught 5th grade in the Cleveland School Sytstem for 16 years...so, I am very familiar with how the "secular" world sabotages our Godly heritage. I have studied US history throughout my life...my dad was a history buff. He took the family all over the USA to site see...battlefields, museums, graveyards, other points of interest. So...at a young age...I was accustomed to the "truth" as it truly was back then....and, I can remember it vividly. My brothers have the historical data that my dad left as a legacy. They are "sentimental" Irishmen. I don't accept the truth from very many "secular" sources b/c I know that it has been tampered with. I will use the word "bias" when taking about the media, and anything that our liberal authors throw at us. Christian History is hidden deep...but, it is there...no doubt. You have to look for it. And, I have! Again, I recommend David Barton...please look him up in the Internet (he is there). Although, they will "try" and slander the man's good name if you let them (the press that is). Needless to say...I don't care for Communists. And, this is where this country is heading. Right under our very noses. Unfortunetly, my son doesn't know the world that I once knew...nor, I the world my parents knew...and, so on. It headed for a big nose dive in the 1960's. The Vietnam War, Free Love...Haight-Ashberry in San Fransico, CA comes to mind here. These lost young people (at that time) were experimenting with LSD. An experiment that was governmental...to explore the other 90% of the human brain...as we only use about 10% (Dr. Timothy Leary)...gone into the hands of a "curious" generation. I am VERY greatful that I escaped that era...otherwise, prior to my salvation...I would have been riding on that roller-coaster...believe me. I had no self-control...until Jesus Christ came into my life. Thank the Lord that I only experimented w/ alcohol...b/c the other stuff was unappealing. Alcohol was BAD enough. Now, if you want to start talking about speaking in tongues? Well, I could start w/ the "Beloved Enemy" and what it did to me, and other loved ones...some are not hear to speak for themselves. By the Grace of God I am not 6 feet under like them. :sad

Now, as far as "Speaking in Tongues"? First...one needs to define what tongues is. Go back to the OT...it was a sign to the Israelites for them to believe (obviously prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit). There are 3 Types of Tongues: 1) Imposed by the Holy Spirit. 2) Imposed by an evil spirit. 3) Imposed by the human spirit. Then, as believers we must "Rightly divide the word of truth". ll Timothy 2:15...Study to shew thyself upproved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...KJV. Next, we need to ask ourselves? What DISPENSATION is it? We are now in the Dispensation of Grace...or Age of Grace. The people of Corinth were close to the Book of Acts...therefore, they were very close to the Jewish people and their beliefs...even though they were Gentiles. There were also certain rules within the church on "Speaking in Tongues". In Chapter 12:1-3...The people of Corinth had an "evil spirit on them" b/c they were cursing God. I Corinthians 12:1-3...Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as you were led. ***Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. *** KJV 1611 AV.

As far as my source for the "Spiritual Gifts". I do apologize...I had posted this in another thread awhile ago...so, I thought that I would be repeating myself. This booklet is called Gifts of Grace - The Character of Christ in HIs People. By: Keith and Marian Yoder, Teaching the Word Ministries. Keith and Marian Yoder...TEACHING THE WORD MINISTRIES...One Mayfield Drive...Leola, PA 17540...(717) 656-4056...(717) 656-4712 FAX. This is NOT from the IFB Baptist church...it is non-denominational in purpose.

On the inside cover: A SPIRITUAL GIFT IS: -a unique capacity...-given by the Holy Spirit...-to each believer...-for service in connection with the church...-in order that the church may grow...in numbers, in character, and reproduce itself in new fellowships.

Many blessings...Kevin, as you serve Our Lord and Saviour...Jesus Christ to the Korean people. They will be blessed with your eagerness, knowledge, and most of all...your passion to lead lost souls to the Kingdom of Heaven.

candlelight

P.S. ~ Please feel free Bro.'s Jerry's or anyone else? to fill in the scriptures, or add or change...I will not be offended in the slightest. I get you guys. You are brutally honest...as I would have it. Always giving us what we NEED not necessarily what we WANT. :thumb That's why I am here at OB...to learn. :Bible:

[Jerry]

I know that it is popular to think that Henry VIII started the Anglican Church' date=' and it is true that he made it officially free of Papal authority, but he did not start it. He made himself the head of something that already existed. It existed long before him. The Anglican Church had its own representatives at Nicea and Chalcedon.[/quote']

Those councils were the start of the Catholic church - of which Anglicanism came out of - that is the only sense you can say that the Anglican church started from those councils.



There is much corruption within Anglicanism. I do not have the time nor inclination to list what is wrong with it. Perhaps someone else may be able to.

Thinking that Anglicanism and Baptists are the same doctrinally is wishful thinking and shows either an ignorance of one or both.



A doctrine is what the Bible or a church, etc. teaches on any subject. Yes, infant baptism is doctrinal - but it is false doctrine.

[ptwild]

Those councils were the start of the Catholic church - of which Anglicanism came out of - that is the only sense you can say that the Anglican church started from those councils.

Anglicanism did not "start from those councils", it existed before those councils. Those coucnils had nothing to do with Catholicism. The Bishop of Rome wasn't even in attendance at the first council. I assure you that, if you believe in the fundamentals of christianity, you believe what was produced at Nicea. That is where the basic fundamentals of Christianity were first deemed official.

There is much corruption within Anglicanism. I do not have the time nor inclination to list what is wrong with it. Perhaps someone else may be able to.

Thinking that Anglicanism and Baptists are the same doctrinally is wishful thinking and shows either an ignorance of one or both.

Well, when you get the "time" I'd love to hear it. Calling someone ignorant isn't often considered a valid way of giving credance to unsubstanitated assertions.

And infant baptism, though allowed and often practiced, is not the official policy of the Anglican church. I know many Anglicans that weren't baptized as infants, including myself.