Hebrews 6

[lettheredeemedsayso]

I believe that is true. But the spirit of antichrist will be present in the world


1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

[Madeline]

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Men cast these believers aside - not God.

If men in John 15:6 refers to literal men...so then is a branch literally a branch in vv. 4,5? hmmm...

[Jerry]

We are to interpret Biblical passages literally, unless they context clearly indicates otherwise. The earlier verses quite clearly showed who the branches were - true believers in Christ. Why should the "men" in verse 6 not be literal men? If they aren't, how else are you going to determine what is meant in that passage - guesswork?

[Madeline]

Ok, for the sake of your argument lets say that "men" cast these branches into the fire. How do you figure it to be interpreted as "If we tell others we are Christians, and we are not abiding in Christ, then men will cast us aside as useless, cast aside our testimony as vain and useless."? I'm not trying to make things hard for you, I honestly cannot figure out how you came to that interpretation.

[Bakershalfdozen]

I don't know, I can't judge the heart of these IFB men and women who live like the world. But I do know that everyone who is genuinely saved will be raptured, "2 Thess. 2:7...only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." This is the Holy Spirit in the Church, who will be taken out of the way in the Rapture. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit in this world to some extent restrains evil. And this I believe is accomplished through the presence of believers who are the "salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13). Jesus says "ye are the salt of the earth..."), the phrase "ye are" tells us that Jesus is referring to genuine saved persons. So all saved persons wil be raptured, even the IFB men and women who just so happen to be living like and in the world, i.e., if they truly are saved.

Love,
Madeline

It is good to see that you have come to this belief. When did you change your mind and what caused you to?

[Madeline]

It is good to see that you have come to this belief. When did you change your mind and what caused you to?

Change my mind about what? concerning Salvation? rapture?

[Jerry]

Ok, for the sake of your argument lets say that "men" cast these branches into the fire. How do you figure it to be interpreted as "If we tell others we are Christians, and we are not abiding in Christ, then men will cast us aside as useless, cast aside our testimony as vain and useless."?

The men are literal - the fire is not (ie. this is not referring to some kind of persecution where believers are being burned at the stake). So what does it mean?

This might help answer some questions:

The following is from Bible Questions Examined by Louis Talbot:

A careful examination of the text makes it very clear that we have in this passage: (1) What God does with a fruitless branch; and (2) what men do with a fruitless branch. But the branch is united to the vine all the while!

What does God do with the fruitless branch?

[Madeline]

The men are literal - the fire is not (ie. this is not referring to some kind of persecution where believers are being burned at the stake). So what does it mean?

This might help answer some questions:

[Bakershalfdozen]

Change my mind about what? concerning Salvation? rapture?

The Rapture.

[Jerry]

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus is talking about those "in Him" - this can only refer to believers. Then the exhortation is for those believers to abide continually in Christ so as to produce fruit that will glorify Him. If they produce fruit, they are purged so they can produce more. If they stop producing good fruit, then they are cast aside.

The passage does not say GOD or ANGELS will cast them into the fire, but MEN will do so. If He was referring to the lost here, He would have been more clear in His statements. Men have nothing to do with casting anyone else into Hellfire.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

[Madeline]

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus is talking about those "in Him" - this can only refer to believers. Then the exhortation is for those believers to abide continually in Christ so as to produce fruit that will glorify Him. If they produce fruit, they are purged so they can produce more. If they stop producing good fruit, then they are cast aside.

The passage does not say GOD or ANGELS will cast them into the fire, but MEN will do so. If He was referring to the lost here, He would have been more clear in His statements. Men have nothing to do with casting anyone else into Hellfire.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Exactly my point! Every branch "in me." The branches that are "in Him" are the branches that abide in Him (v.5). Those (branches) that do not "abide" in him (v.6) do not produce fruit, therefore they are cast into hell to be burned for all of eternity (v.6). Men casting the branches can be interpreted in many ways if we insert our personal opinions into the text. It could also mean that these people (branches) follow the ways of man rather than God, and as a result their destiny is eternity in hell. :dunno: But we can clearly see 2 types of branches being spoken of here...one that bears fruit by "abiding," and one that withers away "does not abide" and is cast into the fire (hell).

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

The Rapture.

I never said that I was pre-trib! I believe in a Rapture as mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:7, but I have no idea if this is Post-trib or Pre-trib. I'm leaning more towards post-trib.

[Bakershalfdozen]

Relax. I was just curious. :smile

[Madeline]

Relax. I was just curious. :smile

Must have been the tea with ginseng I had this morning. Kinda made me a little hyper. Sorry.

[Jerry]

Jesus is already talking to believers - and exhorting them to abide in Him. If abiding in Him meant just getting saved, then the passage makes no sense.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

A warning to believers when they are no longer bearing fruit.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

A promise for having prayers answered - implication being that believers WON'T have their prayers answered when they are not abiding in Him.

This passage is not dealing with believers AND the lost - one bearing fruit and the other not; it is dealing with fruitful believers AND unfruitful believers.