Hebrews 6

[JJJ4given]

Jerry,
I understand your view. That basically God is speaking to believers and then speaking about unbelievers, and then speaking back to those believers. My question is "why". Why do you think the God would divert into this subject here and preface 4-6 with "For...". It would seem verse 4-6 would be very closely tied with what is being dealt with in verse 1-3 and before. So I am just curious how in your understanding of this, why would God speak it like this?

God bless!

[Jerry]

What does it matter what I think? God is clearly giving a warning in that passage - and the changes in pronouns show that He is referring to two different groups of people there. That much is obvious, regardless of why we may think so. The saved are encouraged to mature in the Lord and reminded that the Lord will keep His promises and reward their service to Him - the lost are warned about staying where they are, producing evil fruit, not receiving the truth, etc.

[Doc H]

Does anyone believe that ANY of the Bible applies to the Tribulation and or Millenium saints?

After we are raptured there is seven years of tribulation and then 1000 years of Christ's reign. Do the Pauline epistles apply to them as they do to us in the Church age? :loco

[Pastorj]

There are passages that deal with both the Tribulation and the Millennium. Salvation will still be the same in the Tribulation and Millennium, however, the principles dealing with the church will not be as applicable, just as the OT principles for Israel are not as applicable to us today.

[Jerry]

Most of the book of Revelation are the passages directly applicable to the Tribulation saints - plus Matthew 24 (and parallel passages) and various OT passages.

[Doc H]

According to 2 Thess. 7 the Antichrist will not be revealed until the Holy Ghost is removed right?

But obviously he will still be around convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment.

So what's the difference during the Church Age and the Tribulation?

May I suggest (and I believe this is the correct way to rightly divide the word of truth) that the Holy Spirit will not seal believers like he does today. He will indwell them but will not ABIDE with them unless they keep the commandments.

Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God, and the FAITH of Jesus.

This explains the verses in Matthew, John, Hebrews etc that apparently teach that a CHURCH AGE CHRISTIAN can lose his salvation without having to spiritualize and look up multiple commentaries to find an answer to give the Catholics and Charismatics/Pentecostals.

Yes, these verses do teach that one can lose their salvation but it doesn't apply to US-Amen!

[Jerry]

There are some verses that are hard to understand, but there are NO verses that teach a child of God (aka believer, Christian, saint, etc.) could lose their salvation. Yes, there are warnings - but GOD keeps His own and they do not lose their salvation - regardless of whatever dispensation or time period they are living. Salvation has ALWAYS been a gift - by grace through faith - in every time period of man once sin entered the picture - by putting faith in the Messiah and His payment for our sin. Even Adam and Eve knew that a substitute had to die in their place, blood had to be shed, and that the lamb that was killed to cover their sins was a picture/type of the real Lamb of God that would take away their sins, the Messiah that was to come.

Just because you personally do not understand or know how to reconcile or interpret some verses does not mean that they teach a true believer could lose their salvation.

One of the most misunderstood phrases for the Tribulation period is, "He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," and "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Oh, look, if a believer doesn't endure to the end, he is going to lose their salvation! Not! Saved from what? Salvation/saved means deliverance/deliver. Is that phrase teaching that a believer is not saved spiritually unless they endure to the end (or that they could lose their salvation along the way), or not saved physically unless they do so? The context is warning about all the trials and judgments that were to come, how that many would be put to death during that time period, and here is a promise to those believers that if they are faithful they will live to see Christ return at the end of the tribulation - not that they would eventually be saved from sin or have to keep their salvation.

Trace out a word in Scripture and keep the passages in context. Again, saved/salvation does not always refer to deliver/deliverance from sin - the context determines what type of salvation is in view. Several hard passages would not be twisted by the cultists and those who don't know their Bible very well if this was kept in view.

Psalms 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (ie. saves us from a guilty conscience)

James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Also, James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (ie. save them from their sickness, not save their souls - the context is sickness that was a result of chastisement to true believers. When the sin is confessed and repented of, the sickness will be healed, and it will not be the sin unto death because they have turned from it, and are now saved from death and their sickness - not from sin.)

[Madeline]

According to 2 Thess. 7 the Antichrist will not be revealed until the Holy Ghost is removed right? But obviously he will still be around convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Seems like an apparent contradiction. How can the Holy Spirit be "removed" if the Holy Spirit is God and is Omnipresent? It is the body of believers which are removed prior to the appearance of the man of sin. The body of believers are the "salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13), and apparently the SALT will lose it's flavor when the rapture occurs.

Love,
Madeline

[Doc H]

jerry,

What is your understanding of Revelation 14:12?

What about John 15: 1-6

Who is burned here the fruit (works) or the branch (the believer)?

How will people be saved in the Millenium? By faith or by works.

Jesus Christ will be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem and will be ruling with a rod of iron. They will see Jesus Christ just like Adam walked with God in cool of the night. He didn't need faith did he?

In the Church age we walk by faith and not by sight. Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the subsatnce of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN"!

The plain reading of these "difficult' scriptures becomes straight forward if you consider who they apply to doctrinally.

As a matter of interest did you look at any commentaries to see what Mt 24 and Heb 6 means or did you come to your conclusions simply by interpreting scripture with scripture?

[Doc H]

Seems like an apparent contradiction. How can the Holy Spirit be "removed" if the Holy Spirit is God and is Omnipresent? It is the body of believers which are removed prior to the appearance of the man of sin. The body of believers are the "salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13), and apparently the SALT will lose it's flavor when the rapture occurs.

Love,
Madeline

Madeline,

Good point but I am not saying the rapture doesn't occur. Who is it that letteth? The Christian or the Holy Ghost?

God warned in Genesis 6 that his Spirit shall not always strive with man and the result was -well you know just as well as I do what happened next.

When the rapture occurs the same thing will happen-unrestrained wickedness of man and every thought of his heart evil continually.

Do you really think that 'Christians' are the 'salt' of the earth? Most of them are more like the world than the world itself and that includes many IFB.

[Madeline]

Madeline,

Good point but I am not saying the rapture doesn't occur. Who is it that letteth? The Christian or the Holy Ghost?

God warned in Genesis 6 that his Spirit shall not always strive with man and the result was -well you know just as well as I do what happened next.

When the rapture occurs the same thing will happen-unrestrained wickedness of man and every thought of his heart evil continually.

Do you really think that 'Christians' are the 'salt' of the earth? Most of them are more like the world than the world itself and that includes many IFB.

I don't know, I can't judge the heart of these IFB men and women who live like the world. But I do know that everyone who is genuinely saved will be raptured, "2 Thess. 2:7...only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." This is the Holy Spirit in the Church, who will be taken out of the way in the Rapture. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit in this world to some extent restrains evil. And this I believe is accomplished through the presence of believers who are the "salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13). Jesus says "ye are the salt of the earth..."), the phrase "ye are" tells us that Jesus is referring to genuine saved persons. So all saved persons wil be raptured, even the IFB men and women who just so happen to be living like and in the world, i.e., if they truly are saved.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

What is your understanding of Revelation 14:12?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

How does this promote your view of works being necessary for salvation in the Tribulation period? It doesn't. It states that the saints (ie. saved) will persevere and keep God's commandments and their faith - that is what believers are to do now too. It is not speaking of HOW to be saved, but how to conduct yourself if you are saved.

What about John 15: 1-6

Who is burned here the fruit (works) or the branch (the believer)?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Men cast these believers aside - not God. It does not say they are burned in Hell. What this passage is teaching - and it IS referring to those "In Christ" - is that the only way we can produce fruit that will remain and glorify God is if we abide in Christ. If we tell others we are Christians, and we are not abiding in Christ, then men will cast us aside as useless, cast aside our testimony as vain and useless.

How will people be saved in the Millenium? By faith or by works.

Jesus Christ will be sitting on the throne in Jerusalem and will be ruling with a rod of iron. They will see Jesus Christ just like Adam walked with God in cool of the night. He didn't need faith did he?

Nothing like speculation, eh? We don't base our doctrines on our ability to reason out something by man's philosophies. Adam and Eve were saved by faith - AND GOD WAS STILL WALKING IN THEIR MIDST WHEN HE SAVED THEM AND KILLED SACRIFICES IN THEIR PLACE - they were expelled from the garden AFTER they were saved and were covered with those coats of sins (which ALL through Scripture represent the righteousness of Christ - they received God's testimony of the coming Messiah by faith). Those in the Millenium will still have to receive Christ's sacrifice by faith - because they cannot see it then. They will see Christ in the flesh, however, they still have to take God's Word about His sacrifice for their sins. Therefore, salvation is still by faith.

As a matter of interest did you look at any commentaries to see what Mt 24 and Heb 6 means or did you come to your conclusions simply by interpreting scripture with scripture?

A combination of both - my studying out difficult passages includes tracing the words/phrases, etc. throughout Scripture, as well as seeing how sound men in the faith have preached/explained those passages. I am being a responsible steward by using whatever sound resources are at my disposal when studying God's Word.

[Doc H]

jerry,

I am not PROMOTING MY views I am simply discussing and debating. What you wish to believe, at the end of the day, is up to you.

I am NOT the ONLY one who believes in dispensational salvation as if this was some NEW and HERETICAL teaching, there are many other Bible believing KJO christians who also interpret the scriptures this way, and BTW they are NOT ALL so called 'Ruckmanites'.

I have never denied the fact that GRACE and FAITH are present throughout the dispensations. After all, we all deserve to go to hell if it was not for God's grace and mercy.

But how you can say that every single person throughout the Scriptures is born again and saved in exactly the same way is beyond me, unless, of course, you look to the interpretations of "great" theologians who on the most part are the same one's who correct our perfect Bible :loco

Did the rich young ruler really understand that to INHERIT eternal life, he had to be born again by believing/trusting in the DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION of Christ, that he was looking forward to the cross.

C'mon now even the Catholic Church has a better take on this than you do.

I'll tell you one thing, though, after studying this out, I feel far more confident in debating/witnessing to Catholics, Campbellites, Charismatics and others who claim the Church Age Christian can lose his salvation by just using Scripture ALONE without going to any other sources and tradition that has been handed down without critical analysis.

Just because so and so who has "won" 10,000 to Christ says so doesn't MAKE it SO!

[Jerry]

I didn't say OT believers were born again - I said they trusted in the Messiah and were saved by grace the exact same way. That IS EXACTLY what Paul teaches in the NT - about Abraham, and David, and other OT believers. Argue with God - and using a smilie to imply I

I have never denied the fact that GRACE and FAITH are present through out the dispensations, after all we all deserve to go to hell if it was not for God's grace and mercy.am off my rocker doctrinally doesn't help the discussion.

If there are ANY works in the mix necessary for salvation in ANY dispensation, then that is another gospel, and not a believe in "grace and faith" according to the Scriptures:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Read Romans 4 - it makes it pretty clear that OT saints were saved exactly the same way as NT saints. There is only ONE way of salvation in the Scriptures throughout the different dispensations of man.

[JJJ4given]

jerry,

I am not PROMOTING MY views I am simply discussing and debating. What you wish to believe, at the end of the day, is up to you.

I am NOT the ONLY one who believes in dispensational salvation as if this was some NEW and HERETICAL teaching, there are many other Bible believing KJO christians who also interpret the scriptures this way, and BTW they are NOT ALL so called 'Ruckmanites'.

I have never denied the fact that GRACE and FAITH are present through out the dispensations, after all we all deserve to go to hell if it was not for God's grace and mercy.

But how you can say that every single person throughout the Scriptures is born again and saved in exactly the same way is beyond me, unless of course you look to the interpretations of 'great' theologians who on the most part are the same one's who correct our perfect Bible :loco

Did the rich young ruler really understand that in order to INHERIT eternal life he had to be born again by believing/trusting in the DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION of Christ, that he was looking forwards to the cross.

C'mon now even the Catholic Church has a better take on this than you do.

I'll tell you one thing though, after studying this out, I feel far more confident in debating/witnessing to Catholics, Campbellites, Charismatics and others who claim the Church Age Christian can lose his salvation by just using Scripture ALONE without going to any other sources and tradition that has been handed down without critical analysis.

Just because so and so who has 'won' 10,000 to Christ says so doesn't MAKE it SO!

Doc H.

First, I think it would be a more pleasant discussion if you toned things down a little. Your intentions seem to be from a desire to argue and win than from a point of trying to understand truth. I hope that is not the case, but so far that is the way things appear.

Second, doctrine is based upon doctrinal statements in the scriptures., not based on examples given in the scriptures. To say that the example with the rich young ruler means that people were saved by keeping the law prior to Christ's death is not a very honest approach to scriptures.

To get the best understanding of scriptures, we understand the examples from the doctrinal statements, not the other way around.

So, in other words, we need to take what is said by Jesus Christ and understand that he is not contradicting the following verses:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The law never gave eternal life. That is very clear. On top of that, this man had kept all the law (according to what he said) and Jesus Christ only gave him one more thing to do, which was not listed in the commandments, so he could follow Jesus Christ. But the issue was that he regarded his money more in his heart than turning to Christ. You can't get saved when you hold something else more important than Jesus Christ.

That applies to people today (as well as then).

God bless!