Lordship Salvation

[Samer]

This is a bit tricky, and probably involves some semantics. I've seen the upper two views called "Lordship salvation," and the third one is usually called "free grace" or "easy believism." If what you believe is different than all of the three answers (perhaps a combination of several), please select "other" and try to describe how.

One question that might help decide where you are on this...If you're at somebody's door talking to him about salvation, and he's drinking a beer, and asks you, "I'd become a Christian, but then I'd have to give up my beer and all my other sinning," what would you do?
1) Give him a strong rebuke, and tell him to give you a call when he's poured out all his beer, and then you will talk about salvation.
2) Tell him if we truly love Christ, we will follow His commandments. Also tell him nobody is too bad to be saved, but he needs to choose to love his beer or to love Christ, because if Christ saves him, He's going to clean things up.
3) Take his hand and read to him 1 John 5:13. Then ask him if he believes he's a sinner, and if he believes Jesus died on the cross. If he answers yes, lead him in a prayer of salvation, because that's all he needs.
4) Other?

This should be fun.

Edit: All right...I meant to imply the beer guy was a drunkard and was convicted that it was wrong, and still didn't care.

[Jerry]

I believe true salvation involves recognizing that Jesus is Lord and Saviour - that He has the right to tell you how to live (ie. that's why a new believer needs to start getting into and applying God's Word) - not "making Him Lord", but believing He IS Lord (ie. the LORD God of the Bible), and knowing that would change the way we live.

In the example you gave, that would fall under the issue of standards (unless the man was a drunkard or a drug addict), and that is something that should be dealt with personally after salvation. If they were a drunkard or an addict (and I knew that through personal involvement with them), then it would be something I would address and indicate that it is something they would need to repent of when turning to Christ for salvation, then trust the Holy Spirit to give them the grace and strength to put it out of their lives and resist the temptation to give into it as they walked with the Lord.

(For the sake of clarity, repentance is changing your mind about your sin, turning from it in your heart - and true repentance WILL result in a changed life - but the change comes after salvation as we walk with the Lord, and not something we do first to be saved.)

[kevinmiller]

I chose #2.

[Samer]

:lol: I knew there would be a semantics issue somewhere! Perhaps I should have said he didn't want to give up his drunkenness and all his other sinning; in any case, I meant to make it a clear sin (although I do think alcohol is one) that a person was convicted of as sin, and refused to turn from to Christ.

In particular, I am reminded of a woman I was talking to at a booth a few months back, who told me something like church wasn't for her, and that she loved her whiskey too much. I just tried to talk to her about the death of Christ, but she seemed pretty complacent, and had to go shortly thereafter. I think she had a church background, but don't remember it too clearly.

[Anon]

Number two....

I know David Woods is not the best in every way but at the church we were at before we took the soulwinning course he gives via video. He says if you are at the door and someone asks about giving up a sin, that you are supposed to not answer the question and assure the person that after he hears everything you have to say (plan of salvation) that his question will be answered.

I think David Woods' plan is a little too "fast" and that most people won't be saved on the doorstep like that...but I do think that many people ask questions to get you off the beaten path and that instead of getting into a discussion about sin, you should convince them to let you tell them ALL about salvation and then let them choose if they want to give their life to the Lord or not....and not just get "Fire insurance". I don't think that you should stop to answer questions about smoking or drinking or other specific "what ifs".

[Samer]

Is there ever a time when doing something like that might classify as casting our pearls before swine?

[firstlove]

Lordship of Jesus Christ is one thing, but none of us live a sinless life.
I know I do not love the Lord my God with all my heart, my mind and my soul. My mind wonders away from God. And the part that says to love your neighbor as yourself...I fail at that one also. When I have a bowl of ice cream, I don't get up and go see if they want some. I am trying to say that we are in a constant battle with the world. At least I am. People do things that irritate me. I drop dishes and they break. My grandkids spill the milk on a newly mopped floor. I can promise you that I do not thank my Lord for these things. Mostly never. But Jesus is the Lord of my life and I ask Him to be. The person drinking beer is no greater sinner than I. (I would never drink beer and it is wrong) but so is my being overweight. I don't think God has a list of numbered sins.

[Jerry]

I was thinking along a different line when I posted earlier. If the person was convicted of a particular sin when you are presenting the Gospel to them (including how they have broken God's commandments), then I do think you need to emphasize that their sin is sin. I would not get into a conversation about standards, but would deal with the issue of the sins they bring up.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I think a drunkard does need to turn from their sin of drunkeness in order to receive Christ for salvation - however, if the issue was whether someone had to give up their social drinking or their occasional beer/drink, then that would fall under a standard, and I would tell them that would be something they could study out after they receive Christ. If it was a sin they were currently involved in (such as fornication, idolatry, stealing, lying, etc.), then I would tell them they need to repent of these sins and receive Christ.

[Anon]

I am thinking like, you are talking to someone at their door. (Obviously someone who comes forward in church wants salvation already so I'm not talking about them). You start witnessing and they say "Will I have to give up my beer? Will I have to leave my girlfriend? Will I have to...?" That shows they do not want Christ enough because they obviously know that being a Christian means not living this way. Which is why I'm saying, try to push aside their questions temporarily and see if they will let you explain salvation. If, after a full explanation of sin and redemption they are still asking questions like that, they probably are not interested in being saved. If they are, I think the Spirit will already begin to be answering some of these things in their heart.

[Samer]

Oh, I see. More obstinate than convicted, and just trying to argue.

[Anon]

Oh, I see. More obstinate than convicted, and just trying to argue.

Right...and after they let you explain it once, I think its time to move on...which would not be throwing pearls to swine. At least the person had a chance to hear the gospel.

[Tim]

I chose 2 and I agree with Jerry's post that said.

I think a drunkard does need to turn from their sin of drunkeness in order to receive Christ for salvation - however, if the issue was whether someone had to give up their social drinking or their occasional beer/drink, then that would fall under a standard, and I would tell them that would be something they could study out after they receive Christ. If it was a sin they were currently involved in (such as fornication, idolatry, stealing, lying, etc.), then I would tell them they need to repent of these sins and receive Christ.

And

(For the sake of clarity, repentance is changing your mind about your sin, turning from it in your heart - and true repentance WILL result in a changed life - but the change comes after salvation as we walk with the Lord, and not something we do first to be saved.)

The drunkard turning from his drunkenness could happen practically simultaneous with the drunkard's Salvation.

[dwayner79]

I hit other and will give a VERY brief explanation (i.e. this is a drive by post so don't take it as exhaustive).

I was closer to the first part of one, but there are a few too many holes to check it (like carnal christian).

I do not think a Christian makes God Lord of His life. If he is saved, then Jesus IS the Lord of his life. We do not make him that, He is that as a function.

That said, we do not have to submit every aspect of our lives immediately, nor can we go on without any change at all. I suppose, in theory, that a person can "be saved" die a second later, and never have "changed" but that is in theory only. The Bible makes it clear that when you are saved, you will change. Coming face to face with Christ and beginning that relationship with Him must lead to a change of heart. That change of heart will result in an action change. Now the action may or may not fit what you or I deem as the appropriate "way to live", but there are some pretty obvious things that people will start/stop doing that testify to the fact they are changed.

This position (that change comes after salvation) does not preclude repentance as a fundamental part of salvation. As the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, an individual will see his need for a savior. Repentance is the turning away (in mind) from "sin". I believe it is manifest in a desire to "live for God" or to pursue Him. It is not a line by line turning from every sin in their life.

So there is some disconnected thoughts. I apologize for the quick post. Be back later.

[Madeline]

The Bible makes it clear that when you are saved, you will change.

Nobody mentioned the word Sanctification? God's purpose in our life is to conform us into the image of His Son. He is the potter we are the clay. Man originally being made in the image of God has been corrupted by Adams sin, his moral nature has been lost in the Garden. This is restored through the process of Sanctification as we become more and more like Christ and His character. See (cf. Ex. 31:13; 33:16; Lev. 21:1-23; Jer. 1:5; Ezek. 37:28; Jn. 17:17, 19; Acts 26:17, 18; Rom. 15:16; 1 Cor. 1:2, 30; 6:11; 13:1-13; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Gal. 2:20; 6:14; Eph. 1:3, 4; 3:19; 4:7, 12, 13, 15, 16; 5:25-27; Col. 2:11; 1 Thess. 4:3, 4; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; 2 Tim. 2:11, 21; Heb. 2:11; 9:14; 10:10, 14; 12:10; 13:12, 21; 1 Pet. 1:2; 2 Pet. 1:2-4; 1 Jn. 1:9; Jude 1, 24; Rev. 7:14)

Love,
Madeline

[Alen]

I don't get it? Are you making a joke about the spelling? :puzzled: (either post was edited or I was seeing things, never mind)

As for the topic, I am pretty much with Dwayne on this.

-Alen