The NIV's Got Ghosts!

[Jerry]

Good to know I am not the only one who has noticed this.

Taken from Will Kinney's article: Some Thoughts on the Use of the Term the Holy Ghost

Webster

[Kubel]

Show me how they are the same words.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit (pneuma) of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit (pneuma): for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (pneuma).

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (pneuma):

4 verses using pneuma (breath) to mean Spirit, spirit, ghost, and Ghost in the KJV.

but in the passage that I am pointing out the NIV context makes it as though Jesus Himself is confirming the existence of ghosts

And since many KJVOs believe God himself chose every single word in the KJV, that means God Himself is confirming the existence of ghosts since it is used a number of times in the KJV as well. If it's not a problem in the KJV, how can it possibly be a problem in the NIV? How can you have a problem with Jesus using the word in the NIV (and therefore confirming ghosts), but not the KJV using the word (and therefore confirming ghosts)?

The KJV uses spirit and ghost interchangeably and Spirit and Ghost interchangeably as well. If there are no ghosts, then we have two possibilities:

1) The KJV, like the NIV, is in error every time it says "Ghost" or "ghost".

-or-

2) Both spirit and ghost are used interchangeably, and there is no error.

When the KJV says spirit, it means spirit, and when it says ghost it means ghost. There is a very grave error we human creatures engage in when we second-guess God and re-arrange and interchange His Words and placements of His Words. It is a very eggregious wrong to be doing this and the studious Bible scholar will avoid it at all costs.

So you are saying there is a clear difference in the KJV between ghost and spirit? If so, what is the third Person of the trinity. Is He a Ghost or a Spirit? The KJV refers to Him as both. Perhaps there is a fourth Person of the trinity. The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit? I mean, if the KJV says it, it must mean it, right? In reality, spirit and ghost are used interchangeably. So obviously there isn't much of a difference between the two words.

This is a petty argument against the NIV and a weak attempt to defend the KJV against the very same argument that attempts to find fault with the NIV. When KJVOs use X argument against Y translation, it's so horrible and evil for the Y translation to use X. But when X is found in the KJV, the argument is dismissed as irrelevant and God's will for it to be there.

[Jerry]

Wow - Kubel, I can't believe how much you argue and twist things just because you can. If you had actually read and comprehended what I posted and read the context of what my concern was with the NIV here, you wouldn't be posting your ludicrous statements...

My problem wasn't that they used a certain word that has a range of definitions based upon the context - so get over that. My problem was they used the term ghost in the context that quite clearly made it seem as a departed spirit coming back and confirming the existence of such - THAT was the point.

[Kubel]

Oh yes, I just can't help myself- I must turn everything into an argument 'just because I can'.

I understood your point 100%. Your saying that in the NIV, Jesus is supposedly confirming the existence of ghosts. Others have responded by saying that Jesus wasn't necessarily confirming the existence, but was just addressing the peoples concerns. But what I'm saying is that (under your assumption that ghosts and spirits are different) the KJV is also confirming the existence of ghosts because it too uses that word countless times. But you haven't addressed that point. You are supporting the idea that ghosts and spirits are different things, yet ignore the KJVs usage of them as identical. The fact is, if the KJV claimed that Jesus used the word ghost there, you wouldn't have a problem with it. Your just bashing the NIV here because it's not KJV.

[Jerry]

I never said they were two different things - these words have a range of meaning. Ghost has several definitions, one of which is the spirit of men - and another is a dead spirit that comes back to haunt. The passage from the NIV has Jesus confirming the existence of a haunting spirit (based on the context) - that's why I have a problem with it, regardless of what book taught that - whether it was some Christian novel or some "Bible".

You are supporting the idea that ghosts and spirits are different things, yet ignore the KJVs usage of them as identical.

Context, context, context. The KJV uses one definition of ghost as the equivalent of spirit - it does not equate ALL definitions of ghost with spirit. Let's make that clarification here - that is the problem I have with the NIV in this passage under discussion.

[kevinmiller]

Could it be that at the time the KJV was translated, "ghost" referred to any spririt of man rather than the meaning it holds to people today?

Though, in reality, I personally don't see much difference in it. If a ghost is a dead person that came back and a spirit is the soul of a person, either way Jesus was in human form making the disciples think he was a spirit or ghost. They seem pretty synonymous to me.

[Jerry]

A spirit is a being without a body - it might never have had a body. For example, angels, men, and God are spirits. The term ghost can mean this, as well as mean a departed spirit that has come back - which we know contradicts the Bible.

Jesus stating He was not a spirit (as the KJV renders it) indicates He was a physical being, and He confirms the existence of non-physical beings (the three of which I indicated above). However, the way it is worded in the NIV and their use of the word ghost here has Jesus confirming that there are departed spirits that come back to earth - which is outright false teaching and contradicts the Bible. There is a difference between the usage of these terms, as the contexts indicate. There are spirits - beings without bodies - there is no such thing as a departed spirit that comes back from the dead.

[Anon]

I honestly did not see that interpretation in the NIV passage... I can see how you are not comfortable with the word in context because of our modern day usage of the word, but I do not think the translation is technically "wrong". (The NIV has alot of errors, not the least of which its from the wrong text...but in this case I do not see error in "ghost" vs "spirit", especially in the light of how the KJV interuses these two terms)

[kevinmiller]

I agree with you Suzy. Especially seeing as it is translated from the same Greek word.

[Jerry]

You don't get my point. I am not saying spirit is right and ghost is wrong. What I am stating is Jesus is confirming in the NIV that there are such things as ghosts - ie. dead spirits that come back to life. That is ONLY part of the word range of the word ghost - but that is the definition that fits the context of the verse in the NIV - THAT is the part I have a problem with. In the KJV, you have Jesus confirming the existence of spirits - could be angels, God, or mankind in Heaven or Hell - that doesn't contradict the rest of the Bible nor present false teachings.

[Anon]

Not trying to be obstinate but I re-read your original post and I don't see that at all...can you post the context?

[Kubel]

I am not saying spirit is right and ghost is wrong. What I am stating is Jesus is confirming in the NIV that there are such things as ghosts - ie. dead spirits that come back to life.

If you agree that ghost/spirit are ok to be used synonymously, then I don't see your point. If they are both the same word, the KJV and the NIV mean the exact same thing.

Luke 24:39 (NIV)
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a [ghost/spirit] does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.

Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a [spirit/ghost] hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

:dead: :TGIF: