Government "Licensing"

[chev1958]

Rather than hijack the "Biblical marriage" thread, I'll start another discussion. CowboyPreacher brought up some interesting points about government documentation.

First of all, I'd like to say that I'm uncomfortable with all the records the government has on me. But when I joined the military, I gave up my privacy. As our Founding Fathers were, I am suspicious of government. But some documentation doesn't appear to violate Scripture. Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem to be "taxed" (counted). God kept a pretty good record of the geneology of His Son. And it could be argued that if you don't take advantage of some government benefits (such as the child tax credit), then you're not being a good steward of your money. You're giving more money to the government than you are required to, which reduces the amount you could have to provide for your family or give to God's work.

CowboyPreacher, could you please respond to a few comments? I'm not trying to be argumentative - just bringing up points for discussion. From the way it sounds, you don't exist by government standards. Were you and your children born at home and without a doctor/midwife? Because that's the only way I can think of in which you can have a birth without a birth certificate. I'm having a hard time figuring out how you can get a job, financing - basically live - without such things as photo ID, which requires birth certificate or some proof of your identity. I'm assuming you don't drive a motorized vehicle either, because you don't have a driver's license. And in these terrorist times, I think I would want to have some proof of who I am before the government accuses me of something horrid.

Like I said, it's too late for me to do anything about the records the government has on me. But if I need to alert some of the young folks who attend here, I'd like to know.

Thanks,

Mitch

[qwerty guy]

Ask Kent Hovind what kinda testimony you have when you go to far.

I'm not saying I disagree with the constitutionality people, but we're under laws and rules in the United States that are not like the USA in 1800, and if you want to change it you either run for office or make a political movement, you don't just decide to break the rules because you don't agree with them.

If you think the government goes to far with drivers licenses, so you will not get one, then don't drive. Once you get behind the wheel you're in violation of the law, and the people that say you are, have all the guns, courts, and prisons necessary to win the argument.

First ask yourself if you're either A) doing something you must hide or That important that the government cares.

I do hold the personal belief that the government is way out of bounds, but I also don't worry. I don't hide that I'm Christian, so all the better if they listen to me soul win. If they track my movements, hopefully when they go where I go every Sunday, they join the church lol.

The world is gonna get really really bad one day, and if there was a way to stop it, it would be in the Bible. The bible is clear though that all we can do is watch and prepare. Instead of focusing your efforts in this area on ruining your own life trying to keep your dental history hidden from the NSA, read a book or two on how to disappear overnight if it ever comes to that. You won't worry about what information they get from your drivers license anymore once you learn that if the government one day goes ape and starts killing Christians, you can be a new person by the end of that day, no longer traceable. Cost of this knowledge about $40.00 at amazon.com... cost of leading a paper trail life: a livable life.

I'm more worried about private data gathering sources, like Google. The database they have is massive, the entire world wide web has a mirror image of it saved in their systems, going back years. Every e-mail going to or from a Gmail address has been and still is saved on this database, and more then once Google has allowed government access without warrant to this information. (a specific event of this type leaked out not too long ago causing a minor exodus from G-mail.)

Be realistic on stuff like this. Does it happen? Yes. Could it make it easier for people to find you if things go really bad? Yes. Can you avoid it? Not really, not without ruining your life and making your testimony horrible when you try to tell someone to be Christian like you and they see you living in an unregistered mobile home with NRA bumper stickers holding the bumper up because you're afraid if you go to a service station a satellite will zoom in on you.

On the other hand, I think it wise to at least have the knowledge and plan on what to do if all this data gathering one day turns into actions taken.

[Colin Stolzer]

Chev 1958
This is a very complex set of questions you'd like me to respond to that involve not only biblical principals but also political and social, so I'm going to make anyone who is interested an offer.
I only type about 20 words a minute with about 12 mistakes so for me to answer in this thread would be almost impossible because just to convey the basics of my belief and why I believe them would take probably several pages and to go in depth and chase all the little rabbit trails involved would take forever for me to type.

So here's the offer, in the lower 48 states if you call me and give me your phone number I will call you back on my dime and we can talk about it, tell one of us runs out of breath and passes out. This offer is open to anyone who is interested. This way I can keep working while I talk.

Here's my number (785) 325-2601, I'm usually available but if I'm not my wife takes messages and I always return calls.

C

[tired]

Crazy giving your number on here. :tum

[Colin Stolzer]

Not really it's our ministry number and it's listed every were and I give it out on every tract and bible and prayer card I hand out. So no reason not to post it.

By the way my Name is Colin, just so you know who to ask for.

C

[qwerty guy]

I work from about 7am till 7pm every week day, central time. If you can do it later then 7pm, let me know. I get anytime min on my cell phone after 9, and the long distance is always free.

i type about 22 wpm, so it will save you at least a bit of time. Jk, I think I'm around 60-90, if you want no mistakes. You wanna do the spell checking yourself, then I can do faster. If you let me type it in leet, 177 p//4 |)|5 p0o57 4 u

[Colin Stolzer]

Yeah after 7pm central is fine I'm usually home unless we have church activities. I'm in central time also. This saturday is cowboy church at 8pm and sunday through thursday of next week we have an evangelist at church but we are usually home by 9:00 from church activities.

My long distance is a flat fee unlimited package so I can call anytime any were in the lower 48 for as long as I like.

C

[qwerty guy]

Ok.. I'd call now, but it's already past 10:30... How about monday, about 9:15pm I'll give you a ring. Oh, and I don't know how to type southern drawl, I'll have to improvise :saint

[Colin Stolzer]

Monday night should be fine or I'll be around all day tomorrow until late afternoon.

C

[Colin Stolzer]

Our country was founded on a constitutional republic. This is a form of government that guarantees the rights of a population, these rights given by God, and limits the rights of government. The role in government in a constitutional republic is to protect those rights of the individual, not to remove them.

Our government now though, is a representative democracy, where the minority who chooses to vote makes the decisions that govern the majority.

Most people don't understand that the original government, the one where the government was bound to uphold the rights of the population, has been replaced with this current form of government, a government that by use of contracts, can remove the rights of the population. This government is a corporation, acting more like a business then a governmental body.

Keep in mind, that this has nothing to do with salvation, or getting saved. This has to do with making decisions in your life that will effect your Christian living, walk with God, and ability to stand up for God's laws and will.

1 Corinthians 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

If you love God, then those things in this world which appose God, you will hate. You cannot serve both man and God Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. You will find that the things government does that apose God, you will hate.

To be sovereign, is to be a servant to no man. True freedom, biblically, is found in being a servant to Christ, not to man. To be sovereign, to be free to serve Christ in all ways, you must be separate yourself from the control that the government has imposed on you.
Romans chapter 13, carefully studied out, shows the limited authority God places in earthly governments, that they are to do good works, punish evil. The role of government is not have wrath against good, yet our government is not following this. No where in the bible is the example set that a government in opposition to God is to be followed. Indeed, of the examples we have in the bible where government was disobeyed, it was done because these governments where in opposition to God's laws. These biblical people did suffer punishments, in some cases they where protected by God, and in some cases they where allowed to be martyred. Regardless of the outcome though, the example is there that a government in opposition to God, is to be opposed by God's people where they break the laws of God.

The federal government of the United States of America, has put everyone into subjection, slavery. The constitution allows everyone to be born free, and we have a constitutional law against involuntary servitude, but there is no law against voluntary servitude, which most people don't realize that they are under. Under contractual law, when two parties sign an agreement under contract, both parties are to uphold the agreed too terms of the contract. What most people don't understand is that under the current government, the birth certificate, the social security card, drivers license, marriage license, they are all contracts. The Social security and birth certificate are the main two contracts a person signs with the government, making you liable for the full agreement of the listed rules of the contract. Once you sign up for a social security card, or sign for a birth certificate for your child, you are agreeing to all terms and conditions of that contract.

On each birth certificate, you will find a number. This number is a reference to a birth born under a contracted marriage. This marriage, when licensed for, was a contract set up by two equal parties, with a third party, the state, set up as a superior party. A license, by definition, allows for permission for actions that otherwise would be illegal. The state, by issuing marriage licenses, is stating that marriage is illegal unless they approve it. God has not made marriage illegal, but the state has ignored the authority of God, placing themselves in authority over marriage. With the state issuing a marriage license, you are signing up for the state to be the contract holder, placing it's authority above that of you and your spouse. This marriage contract then, producing children, falls under chattel property laws. This is the property of the contract holder, which in a licensed marriage is not the parents, but the state. The birth certificate is a record of the property produced due to this original contract, held by the state.

Social security is a contract where you trade off your constitutional rights for welfare. You have a constitutional right to not be taxed by the federal government, but by signing up for a social security card you revoke these rights. Each state has it's own welfare system, but it is built off this federal welfare system. California is the only state that has it's own, independent welfare system. Who gave the rights to the federal government to have welfare programs? It wasn't in the constitution, but each individual who has a social security card has given this right to the federal government. In times past, when a need arose in a community, it was the local church that took the role of helping. Now it has become the federal government. This replaces God with government, and the reliance of a people from God to government.

This is a change that has happened over the last 150 years. Each step, walking away from a government given by God, toward a government in opposition to God. Each step getting larger, and each one coming quicker. With each right given up by contractual law, the next right to be taken away is that much easier.

The government of today, the federal corporate government, has been setting themselves up to take God completely out of government. Look at the way they have taken the schools out of local community control, look at the way they have regulated the courts, and how they regulate the churches.

Churches are not free from government as many believe. IRS 501 section c3, if you look it up, is the regulation for non-profit organizations that churches sign up for. In the wording though of 501 c3 is that you as a 501 c3 tax exempt entity, cannot speak out against things deemed politically correct by the government. This allows for the government, under the contract of 501 c3 signed by a church, to deem a church in violation of the contract if they speak out against homosexuality if the government deems that they cannot. As a 501 c3 church, it will be difficult to remain in God's will when you're subject to the will of the government.

From the view of society, when a church is closed by the government for IRS violations, this doesn't not set off any worries or questions. Everything the government offers by contract though is a trade off where you get service from them, at the cost of your rights.

Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
5 Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long will it be ere they attain to innocence?

A government that takes the place of God, and puts itself as an authority above God, is going to be cut off. You can see this happening to the United States of America today by looking at the conditions of the children in the public school system. Walk into the inner cities and view the product of a government that has put itself above the authority of God. When we are not under the Godly government that this country was founded on, we are under an ungodly government. If you make yourself subject to this government, you are making yourself subject to an authority that is at enmity with God, and subject to penalties that God did not intend you to be under.

You cannot simply break your word, ignoring the authority you have placed yourself under. When you sign a contract that you will provide goods or services, then by law you must provide those good or services. God is not going to bless nor protect an individual who breaks his word, and goes against the laws of the authority that the person them self put them self under. 1 Corinthians 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.

If you have a chance to be free though, to unbind yourself from the authority that you are under, that keeps you from seeking the full will of God because you must also serve it's will, the bible says you should do so. All contracts stem from 2 base contracts, the birth certificate and the social security card. Every other contract that requires you to provide these two, including drivers license and marriage license, become defunct if the original contracts are found to be invalid.

Under uniform commercial code, which regulates corporations and businesses, fraud is found if deception is used in the signing of a contract. Discovery is a situation where you learn of conditions of a contract that at the time of signing where not disclosed to you. Once discovery is made, you have a limited amount of time to file against the legality of the contract, the protest stemming of the fraud that not all conditions where made known to you. Under the uniform commercial code, you have 3 options when discovery is made. 1) do nothing. This will keep the contract as is, and by default you are agreeing to all terms of the contract. 2) Redeem contract value. All contracts by law must have value, otherwise there is nothing anyone is agreeing too. The value of your social security contract for example, would be the monetary value you have paid into the government, for the anticipated services you will receive at a later date. By redeeming contract value, you could insist on the re-payment of all monies paid into social security on the grounds that the money was collected under fraudulent means. This may not be valid anymore, if loop holes have been closed. 3) your third option, is to cancel the contract letting all value go. The contract is dissolved, but no payments either in goods or services up to that point need to be repaid. Using social security as the example again, you would be out of the social security system, you would no longer be able to collect benefits in the future, they would not re-pay what you have already put in, but you also would not be paying any more into it or be subject to the rules and laws stemming from social security.

Under the law, if you simply stop using the social security number, but have not rescinded the contract, then you are still under the rules and regulations of that contract and are open to fines and imprisonment. Once you remove the contract though, those rules no longer apply. If you remove yourself from the contracts of the birth certificate and social security, all contracts with the government that require a b.c. and/or s.s. also become default because they are contracts built on the original agreements.

If you want to remove yourself, it's best to remove yourself from everything all at once. The laws get more complicated and with more form requirements if you do them one at a time. Also, if you fail to meet any dead lines, cross every t, or make any error in paper work it will be held against you and you may not be able to remove yourself.

The government we are under now, is trying to pass bills such as HR1164, a hate crime bill that has a potential 30 year sentence, even applying to pastors, that could put you in prison for preaching against homosexuality. With every bit of authority the government gives itself, is an authority it has taken from God. There are people in government today that actively against the standards of God, and work to make government an authority in right and wrong, and punish those who don't agree. By contractual law, they have this authority on people due to those same people signing away their rights for promises of governmental services.

How far will God allow this to go before we are cut off completely? How many laws will be passed that punish the good, before God removes himself? How can someone serve God, and also serve a government that is against God? You cannot be blessed of God by breaking rules that you have put yourself in subjection too, you must remove yourself from those rules. It's still possible to do so today, but how much longer before they will not even allow that?

I wanted add a apecial Thank You to Daniel (hope thats spelled right) for listening to me ramble last night and compiling and typing this up for me. I would have never gotten this posted with my typing abilities and limited time. So again Thank You.

I'll restate my offer If you anyone would like to chase any of the many rabbit trails this creates I'll be happy to talk on the phone at my expense and I will try to reply in this thread as much as possible.

C

[chev1958]

C,

I agree with all your statements about what our government has become. And society (Christians included) has allowed our government to turn into the monster it's become. I was not a Christian when I got married and when I entered the workforce, so I have a marriage license and I'm involved in Social Security. I didn't learn until it was really too late (I have a lot of money invested in S.S. now) to do anything about that. And probably 75 percent of what our government does is unconstitutional. That's why politicians such as Tom Tancredo and Ron Paul are so intriguing now. If true Americans would follow those two guys and return to constitutional principles, I believe God would restore our land because we would be turning back to Him.

I can see where you're coming from with regard to licensing. I'm a little wary of the strict definition of "contract" that you keep calling it, especially with regard to marriage. But as was said in the "Biblical Marriage" thread, if American society followed God as it once did, we wouldn't need or have what we do now as a government. Maybe you should consider running for elected office, where you could help effect change in the direction our government is going. It would be a difficult road to steer our runaway government back to its Biblical roots.

And with that, I'll bid farewell to this thread.

Mitch

[Colin Stolzer]

At a State level I have a good in with our local representative, my oldest son works for her and her husband so I go pester her all the time about state issues. I'm trying to find an open door with our Federal representatives and when I do I'll go pester them.

I've only ever considered running for one office and I couldn't get the signatures to get on the ballot at the time but I wanted to be the county sheriff when we lived in Wyoming.
C

[sarcrew]

CP says, "Our country was founded on a constitutional republic. This is a form of government that guarantees the rights of a population, these rights given by God, and limits the rights of government. The role in government in a constitutional republic is to protect those rights of the individual, not to remove them." AMEN!

Since this thread is about government I'd like to add something. As a founding father once said (to paraphrase) - those willing to surrender a little freedom for a little security deserve neither. One thing most people overlook is what happens when the old adage "there outta be a law" is put into practice. I'll give a few examples.
1) Motor cycle helmets - many people (who didn't even ride a motorcycle) felt common sense would dictate that riders should wear a helmet - so they demanded the government take away the rights of riders to chose.
2) Seat belts - many people decided common sense dictated that people should wear seat belts - so they demanded the government take away the rights of drivers to chose.
3) Car seats - many people decided common sense dictated that kids should be in a car seat - so they demanded the government take away the rights of parents to chose.
4) Abortion - many people decided common sense dictated that women should be in "charge of their own body" - so they demanded the government take away the rights of a baby to live.

In every case all that was done was those "many people" gave up their own rights and said to big brother, "You tell us how to live".

On another thread a sister said she thought DL's were a good thing because she didn't want drunks out there driving. Look around sister - they are still out there - they just have to pay more to keep driving! All the license does is give up our rights! Show me where the Constitution says the State can mandate our mode of travel much less say it is a privilege! Out taxes built a massive network of roads to travel on and then the State banned us from using them unless we sign up for more control. Here in AZ it would be impossible to go from many areas to another without using a public road or crossing federal land - either BLM, Forest Service, or National Park (all of which violate the Constitution!).

Again, as a founding father once said (to paraphrase) - those willing to surrender a little freedom for a little security deserve neither.

Wayne

[John81]

It's also been noted that the massive proliferation of new laws in recent times has had the major effect of turning decent citizens into instant criminals!

The out of control government wants absolute control. The Founders knew this would happen if the central (federal) government were not kept in check. This was to be done by the Constitution (which was designed to chain the central government down) and to be enforced by the States and the people.

Today, the government tells you where and how your children must be seated in a car.

[sarcrew]

You know there is something wrong with your government when a homosexual "couple" can parade down the street dressed in leather and chains with one playfully whipping the other with a leather whip but I can't spank my child in the privacy of my own home.

Wayne