The Independent Baptist Church

[John81]

Would you mind backing that up please?

That's something I've never seen or read about before. Unless this is something new?

[Psalms18_28]

Women can be ordained in the SBC.

I had a woman preach at a SBC before... but it was her husband who was the pastor but he let her preach

[SouthernGal]

I have known of lady deacons in an SBC church. But in our SBC church we do NOT practice this, we know what the requirements are according to the Bible.

I had posted another question earlier, but it did not appear? Anyway, do you find that your IFB church(s) are more conservative than SBC, if so how? In general, what appeals to you most about today's IFB church. I'm just wondering if the IFB church has changed much over the yrs. Thanks.

[kevinmiller]

That's something I've never seen or read about before. Unless this is something new?

I don't think it's true. They were ordaining women years ago when it was more liberal but when conservatives took control, they did away with it, I believe.

[John81]

I know Beth Moore is SBC and I recall someone in an interview asking her about preaching and she said her church didn't allow that and she didn't think it was right and that she was called to teach, not preach.

That's the most current thing I've heard on the subject.

[zealyouthguy]

Ok, let's be specific, who are you speaking of?

Madison's involvement was with a man named John Leland, who opposed government interference in the church and the church's interference in the government. In fact here are some quotes from him:



Needless to say this fellow would be tossed out of many "activist churches" for preaching that kind of truth. Notice the quote about the Papist. Ever hear of "faith based initiatives"?

Do you think John Leland would have been for those?

[Charbo]

I grew up SBC. Here's an article by a man much smarter than I am that answers why I'm not Southern Baptist.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whyi.htm

[Calvary]

That's easy e nough to back up kevin.

The Fall 1997 edition of Folio, the newsletter of Baptist Women in Ministry, published the results of an extensive study and said there were 1,225 ordained women in the SBC and that roughly 200 of those are pastors and associate pastors. There were 16 states where women serve as senior pastors in SBC churches. North Carolina had the most. The other top 10 states for employing Baptist clergywomen were, in order, Texas, Virginia, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Florida, Missouri, Alabama and Maryland. The Folio statistics are probably no longer accurate, as in the year 2000 the newly adopted Faith and Message, the SBC?s statement of faith, took a stand against women being ordained as pastors. At the same time, only some state conventions have adopted the new Faith and Message. The Midwestern Theological Seminary published a report more recently that claims there are only about 35 pastors in Southern Baptist churches, but the report is ?preliminary? and addresses only the issue of senior pastors. SBC seminaries and colleges and other schools used by SBC congregations (such as Dallas Theological Seminary) are filled with women who have feminist sympathies and who are training for the ministry. Chuck Kelley, president of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, stated that more women are now being trained for ministry in Southern Baptist seminaries than at any other time in the SBC?s history (Southern Baptist Convention web site, June 15, 2000).

That reason alone is enough for any true lover of the scriptures to back way up from the SBC.

God bless,

Calvary

[Colin Stolzer]

http://www.americandaily.com/article/4142
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=17617
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ai_4502614
http://www.bjcpa.org/news/news/103006_Gorsuch.htm
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/ ... es-th.html
http://asjournal.zusas.uni-halle.de/13.html

It's amazing that in a quick google search I found 10,000 plus references to books, articles, journalists, reports, and historical records that all quote Leland as being the major influence over Madison in pushing for the 1st amendment yet you persist in saying that he wasn't influential in Gov't. Is it possible that more than a few well studied scholars of american history might be right about Leland? Those links are just a few examples of people qouting Leland as being the major influence for the 1st amendment.

I don't think that preaching politics or politicians is appropriate for the IFB church and historical baptists didn't either.

Are you still going to hold the position that historical baptist didn't either?

C

[Colin Stolzer]

I forgot add a few books just to back it up al little more:

The First Freedoms by Thomas Curry
The Establishment Clause By L. Levy

C

[Colin Stolzer]

Needless to say this fellow would be tossed out of many "activist churches" for preaching that kind of truth. Notice the quote about the Papist. Ever hear of "faith based initiatives"?

Do you think John Leland would have been for those?

Can you tell me what activist churches of today have to do with the historical activism of Churches during the revolution? Just because the focus of the church has changed doesn't mean that history changed with it. I wasn't commenting on the church today I was refuting your statement that historically baptists weren't political from the pulpit. Leland is just one of serveral I can site as being involved.

C

[John81]

The major difference between early American Baptists (and other Christians) and those of today with regards to politics is that back then they sought to have an accountable, controlled, limited government run by morally upright men, while leaving all other matters to the individual States and locals.

Today, "Christian activists" more often attempt to get the government to do their bidding by implementing government programs, redirecting government money, providing this or that service, etc., while ignoring the unconstitutional (which means ILLEGAL, and something Christians should not be a part of!) aspects of the government, government officials or even things they seek to bring about through the government. As well, they accept and even condone immoral men (and women) in leadership now and allow their votes to be bought off by pandering politicians who toss them a bone now and then.

[Colin Stolzer]

Thanks for that John but I wasn't asking about the difference between now and then.
I wouldn't give a plug nickel for 99.9% of the churches that take their pet peeves to capital hill now days. I wanted Zeal to explain his statement to me and how it was relavant to the point of historical baptists.

C

[Calvary]

http://www.americandaily.com/article/4142
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=17617
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ai_4502614
http://www.bjcpa.org/news/news/103006_Gorsuch.htm
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/ ... es-th.html
http://asjournal.zusas.uni-halle.de/13.html

It's amazing that in a quick google search I found 10,000 plus references to books, articles, journalists, reports, and historical records that all quote Leland as being the major influence over Madison in pushing for the 1st amendment yet you persist in saying that he wasn't influential in Gov't. Is it possible that more than a few well studied scholars of american history might be right about Leland? Those links are just a few examples of people qouting Leland as being the major influence for the 1st amendment.

Are you still going to hold the position that historical baptist didn't either?

C

Not to get all argumentive about this particular point, but I have a 700 plus page book of collected sermons from 1680's to the 1790's on American soil. The pulpit in America was ALWAYS one of the determining influences on our thoughts, ideals and expressed the outrages of tyrany for many generations.

Too bad American Christians have opted out of Capitol Hill, perhaps there is a direct relation to the sad and pathetic state of affairs now evident in the idealogy of the general public of the US

God bless,

Calvary

[zealyouthguy]

http://www.americandaily.com/article/4142
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=17617
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ai_4502614
http://www.bjcpa.org/news/news/103006_Gorsuch.htm
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/ ... es-th.html
http://asjournal.zusas.uni-halle.de/13.html

It's amazing that in a quick google search I found 10,000 plus references to books, articles, journalists, reports, and historical records that all quote Leland as being the major influence over Madison in pushing for the 1st amendment yet you persist in saying that he wasn't influential in Gov't. Is it possible that more than a few well studied scholars of american history might be right about Leland? Those links are just a few examples of people qouting Leland as being the major influence for the 1st amendment.

Are you still going to hold the position that historical baptist didn't either?

C

Yes, because you are missing the point, it wasn't political activism on Leland's part. It was his staunch stand against the state interfering with the church and the autonomy and government of the church that Madison was impressed with.

Read some of those 10,000 books.

Baptists are FOR separation of church and state. As I've stated, it's a baptist distinctive.


You can persist, but John Leland speaks against you:

There?s a John Leland spot: ?The fondness of magistrates to foster Christianity has done it more harm than all the persecutions ever did.?