The Hooper family

[BGerald]

This post has been edited due to my coorespondance with the VOM and their sincere apology in this situation.

[kevinmiller]

Not to be offensive, but I think you're over-reacting. The Voice of the Martyrs does not typically run those kinds of stories, it's just not what they do. Their focus is to Christians who are suffering(typically in some physical way) in persecuted countries. If they focused on every story of a legal issue facing homeschoolers or even non-homeschoolers, they wouldn't have a chance to minister to other areas where their focus has been for so many years. It's just not something that their organization would get involved with, especially since it is not a story of someone being persecuted because they are a Christian, but because they are homeschooled. I intend to continue supporting VOM because they do a great work for the persecuted church around the world. I especially appreciate the fact that they are distributing the Bible by balloon into North Korea. :smile

[BGerald]

Have you ever been to Germany. You see I have. I know the position the Gov take over there concerning Christianity. This persecution concerning Homeschooling is because of this man's christian conviction concerning Biblically schooling his children.

Tell me something, do your children have to deal with open pornagraphy at schools by which they are educated. Well the German school systems use it. Tell me, does your Children have to deal with seeing full frontal nude T.V. commercials to advertise deoderant? They do in Germany. Does your children have to deal with the selling of alcohol at the local fast food resturante? They go in Germany. So you see the decision to educate his children the Bible way does make this a religious persecution. No I'm not over reacting. It was not my intention for the VOM to stepp in and financially support this man for get involved in the politics. It was merely to evolk the world wide church of Believer to here this man's story so that they can pray for him. I'm sorry if expecting God's people to pray for God's people is considered over reacting. There is a thing in this country that is against the law and not only that but ethically wrong. That is called "False advertising" The voice of the martyrs claim to be the voice of the persecuted. Well they are not. They wouldn't even take the time to here this man's story. The conversation ended about 1 and a half minutes after it began because the man heard me say Germany.

If you don't take a stand, you'll fall for anything

Bgerald
This was editied due to request by the Missionary family involved. I will give details as to why later when I hear that the situation has been resolved. Thank you.

[kevinmiller]

Yes, and if you take a stand for everything then you spend your whole life fighting for nothing.

Your attitude towards VOM sounds like one of entitlement, which is the scourge of modern society. You believe that since VOM claims to be the voice of the persecuted Church, they should take up your issue simply because you asked them to. Do you realize how many such stories they could write? It's not about asking them to pray about it, they aren't going to run a whole article on homeschoolers being persecuted, it's not what they do. That's the reason why there is HSLD and the CLA, because not one organization can represent everyone and be everything for them. That isn't something that VOM gets into, so why should you expect them to? They can't handle everything so they have dedicated themselves to a multitude of countries where Christians are physically persecuted or where Christianity is outlawed.

Germany may be void of Christianity, but a lot of countries are. No, I've never been there so I'll take your word for it. But France is also non-Christian as is Canada and Australia and even America is heading that way. Perverseness grows. Thankfully, we are still able to worship freely as we please. In answer to most of your questions, the answer is "no" because I'm not yet married. Bottom line, all motives for homeschooling aside, this was an issue of oppression against homeschoolers, not against Christians directly.

[BGerald]

This is not merely a homeschooling issue. The German Gov is bent towards Roman Catholicism and very intolerant of other forms of Christianity. The German Gov is persecuting the Hoopers for the same reason Martin Luther was presecuted, which by the way was in Germany. The hoopers have taken a stand for Christ there and the local officials are disturbed by his presence there. They are disturbed because he preaches the truth of the Bible and not tha fasle hood of the RCC. The reason are the same as Martin Luther's but the method is different. This is a religious persecution.

Now concerning the VOM. I did not expect them or the CLA or ACLJ to get involved legally because they can not interfere with the German law in this case. My intentions for contacting the VOM was just to have them publish a story via a hard copy news letter or maybe on their website so that many other Christians world wide can know about the situation and pray for the Hoopers. Oh by the way, it was an expectation of mine that they here me out because I was, up to this point a fiancial supporter of the VOM. However, let tell you about the way the conversation transpired before you once again call out your judgment. I was on the phone with them for a total of 1 and a half minutes, their chioce. That is barely enough time to introduce myself and tell them of the nature of the call. They did not let me explain the nature of the persecution, as soon as I mentioned Germany, the representative in mid sentenced interrupted me and told me that they would not even consider this man's story because Germany is not on a persecuted checklist. I don't know about you but I don't like to interrupted mid sentence. If you do then hey that's your porrogative. Now I know I saw somewhere in proverbs that the Bible says that a man that answers before he hear a matter is a fool. So tell me how many cases of persecution will it take to get Germany on such a list?

If I send my financial contribution to the ministry, which is voluntary, then they ought to be ready to voluntarily hear what I have to say or anyone else. Now I have been sent to Germany because of our Military and I have been the recipient of religious persecution there myself so you don't have any room or right to say it is not of a religious nature of the persecution. Until your experience first hand, don't sit and assume that it is not.

Now as I have said in an earlier post, it is not over reaction to expect God's people to pray for God's people. The VOM has an awsome responsibility to hear the matter and report the matter. They are able to reach millions of people world wide via several means. This could have been handle very easily. They could have had myself write a piece for them to post on their website pretty much like I have done here and several other websites. Problem sovled and time saved. I have all the info on this Situation. However they chose not to because the ratings for persecution in Germany are not that high. This makes them a news magazine interested in nothing but ratings. The persecuted church is world wide and not a single part this world is any less important than the other.

I tell you what, when you have children, and if you decide to homeschool, and you go through some of the persecution that parents go through for homeschooling, religious and non religious alike, then come tell me this is merely a homeschooling issue. I homeschool my children in the safety of our home in America right now but we have gone through persecution as have others. Let me say this, 90% of the persecution we encounter in this nation, a nation that claims Christianity, is religious. Now magnify that by 60% then you might begin to grasp the kind of persecution you'll find countries where the Gospel has left and all that's left behind is the RCC.

By the way, this is not my issue, I would defend you too if you were going through this very senerio. Yes I am this aggressive when I deal with these types of issues. You see, the problem that I see erroding America are issue just as this one. We live in a country where over 200 years ago Christians stood up and fought issues such as this one and won our independence. 200 years later you have over 225,000,000 Christians in this country, making Christianity still the dominate religion, sitting back on these issue and holding their breath and hoping that these issue will just go away. We need to get off our rear ends, let our voice ring, and express our desire to such Organizations as the VOM, and others what Christians expect. Not only there but in our voting booths. You see almost 200 years later I fight in our military so that you have the right to be heard. To sit and do nothing is an insult to me and other Christain veterans and to all Christian tax payers in this country.

Call the VOM and let them know that just because Germany is not on any persecution list, that the persecution that goes on there is no less important than what happens in Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, or China. You have that right. If your going to support them financially, then you have a right to voice your opinion to them. It's like voting.

Now I've said my peace. You have a choice, sit back and do nothing, or make a phone call, shoot an email, or write the VOM.

[kevinmiller]

You're a bit mistaken in your reasoning, in my opinion. You act as though the ministry is like a government, it's there to serve you. That is completely flawed, again, in my opinion.

A ministry is there to serve others. When you give of your money to the ministry, you are entrusting them to use it as they see fit. You aren't buying stock in the ministry and you aren't making it responsible to you. It's there business what they do with the money and whether or not they choose to listen to you. Giving money doesn't give you a vote. It's a shame that ministries have come to be viewed this way by Christians.

Also, if they were an organization interested in ratings, then they would only send out the newsletter. If that was their goal, why help the nations that they report about? Why would they tell stories of providing literature and Bibles and resources to Christians in persecuted countries? The reason is because they aren't interested in ratings. They want to help the Church around the world in areas of persecution and I admire them for it.

[BGerald]

No you are seriuosly mistaken in 3 areas. Christainity does have an elemant of gov. It always has. Take a look at you church history starting with the apostles. They had a rank structure which makes them Gov. They started in this order

1. Apostles (which we no longer have)
2. Bishops
3. Elders
4. Deacons
5. Evangelist
6. MIssionary.

Each had a position in the church. Also if you would study church history, you would see the Church Gov through out each church age. Let me outline it for you

I Ancient church (30-600 A.D.)
A. Age of the Apostles 30-100
B. Age of the Martyrs 100- 300
C. Age of the Theologians 300-600

II Medieval Church (600-1500 A.D.)
A. Rise of the Papacy 600-1050
B. Height of the Papacy 1050-1300
C. Decline of the Papacy 1300-1500

III Modern Church (1500 - present)
A. Reformation - Counter Reformation (Time of Martin Luther) 1500- 1650
B. Transformation 1650 - 1850
C. Deviation 1850 - present

In each of these ages there was a form of Church Gov. That is why Independant Fundamental Baptist Churches vote on their pastors, and deacons, and any major project the church decides to commit to.

The other area you are seriously mistaken is the VOM. Let me ask you something. If you are going through persecution now, do you want to be prayed for a year from now? Come on do you see just how rediculous this is. Hey most people who go through serious persecution almost don't survive it so it does not make sense to pray for it a year later. Now did you notice in their response to me that they plan each issu out a year in advance. So when you read their newsletter, your reading about an event that happened a year ago. That makes it old news. That means prayer is kinda too late. This alone make them nothing more than a news magazine onlu interested in rating because ratings pull in money. I highly doubt that majority of the money they rake in actually goes to support their Bible dispersion. But that's an assumption just as your assumption that the German Gov didn't persecute this family based on religion.

Third area you are greatly and sadly mistaken is I never asked the VOM to print this for my benefit. Hello, I'm not the center of this story. My intention, and don't miss this once again, was to rally support for (Now may be hard to figure out) PAUL HOOPER and his FAMILY. I hope I made that clear because your diversion tactics are getting old. I think you are afraid to take a stand. And by the way, that church is there to serve me and other people as well. Hello that is the reason we have deacons. The word deacon comes from the greek word deaconos which translated is servant. Hello the reason the apostle appointed deacons was because they were to busy serving the people and could not give themselves to the study of the word of God. But hey don't take my word on that. God wrote it all down for you to study young man. It is in the book of Acts.

Once again you have a choice, stand by and hold your breath and do nothing. Wait for the storm to pass. Or get off your chair, make a phone call, email, or write a letter to the VOM and express that you are not satisfied with the way they handled this situation.

If they were to make things right, and change their policy concerning this issue of only writing stories that come from listed persecuted nations, then I would gladly endorse them and support them. Which let me make this clear as well. I don't have a problem with them being a news magazine. That's what they are and what they should be. I was counting on that fact to get this story published (once again not for me, but to rally prayer support for this missionary, which is me serving someone else and not myself). However I'm total against them only printing stories from listed persecuted nations. This is not hard to figure out. That means they are only interested in the ratings that will bring in more money. The top dollar. Now why am I against this. God expects excellence in our service to Him and to others. He demands that our motives are right, and that our actions match our motives and words. Go to their website http://www.persecution.com/. Look at the motto at the top of the screen. "The voice of the martyrs - servants of the persecuted church". Tell me young man, where is the church? Where the church is, there will be persecution.

[kevinmiller]

1. Apostles (which we no longer have)
2. Bishops
3. Elders
4. Deacons
5. Evangelist
6. MIssionary.

Perhaps you could outline this hierarchy in Scripture. I'm not saying that it is completely wrong, but I would like to see some Bible to back it up.

Each had a position in the church. Also if you would study church history, you would see the Church Gov through out each church age. Let me outline it for you

I Ancient church (30-600 A.D.)
A. Age of the Apostles 30-100
B. Age of the Martyrs 100- 300
C. Age of the Theologians 300-600

II Medieval Church (600-1500 A.D.)
A. Rise of the Papacy 600-1050
B. Height of the Papacy 1050-1300
C. Decline of the Papacy 1300-1500

III Modern Church (1500 - present)
A. Reformation - Counter Reformation (Time of Martin Luther) 1500- 1650
B. Transformation 1650 - 1850
C. Deviation 1850 - present

In each of these ages there was a form of Church Gov. That is why Independant Fundamental Baptist Churches vote on their pastors, and deacons, and any major project the church decides to commit to.

I'm not sure what relevance church history has in how the church should be established. It really means very little to me the ages that man has assigned to these different "ages." It might look good in a history book but, as far as I'm concerned, it has no bearing on what I believe. I go straight to the Bible, not church tradition, for my beliefs. IFB churches vote on their pastors, yes. Where do we find that in Scripture? I don't want a dissertation on church history, you also listed the papacy in that historic timeline. Show me Scripture to back up voting for bishops and deacons.

The other area you are seriously mistaken is the VOM. Let me ask you something. If you are going through persecution now, do you want to be prayed for a year from now? Come on do you see just how rediculous this is. Hey most people who go through serious persecution almost don't survive it so it does not make sense to pray for it a year later. Now did you notice in their response to me that they plan each issu out a year in advance. So when you read their newsletter, your reading about an event that happened a year ago. That makes it old news. That means prayer is kinda too late. This alone make them nothing more than a news magazine onlu interested in rating because ratings pull in money. I highly doubt that majority of the money they rake in actually goes to support their Bible dispersion. But that's an assumption just as your assumption that the German Gov didn't persecute this family based on religion.

You are misunderstanding or have not read the newsletter very thoroughly. I double-checked the last newsletter that I have on hand to be sure. They PLAN the newsletter a year in advance, yes, but they don't write the stories a year in advance. What that planning entails, I don't know, perhaps the countries that will be included in the newsletter. But, from reading this newsletter, it has current and up to date details on different churches and people that would've been impossible to obtain a year in advance, unless they get the "Early Edition" which, in this case, would have to be a year in advance rather than a day.

I think it's a shame how cynical you've become, claiming that they probably don't even use the money for ministry. Perhaps cynical isn't the correct word. Bitter might be a better word. It is such a shame that Christians are so easily offended and then become so bitter that they can turn on and attempt to completely discredit an organization that they once supported.

Third area you are greatly and sadly mistaken is I never asked the VOM to print this for my benefit. Hello, I'm not the center of this story. My intention, and don't miss this once again, was to rally support for (Now may be hard to figure out) PAUL HOOPER and his FAMILY. I hope I made that clear because your diversion tactics are getting old. I think you are afraid to take a stand. And by the way, that church is there to serve me and other people as well. Hello that is the reason we have deacons. The word deacon comes from the greek word deaconos which translated is servant. Hello the reason the apostle appointed deacons was because they were to busy serving the people and could not give themselves to the study of the word of God. But hey don't take my word on that. God wrote it all down for you to study young man. It is in the book of Acts.

I didn't say that you are doing this for your own benefit. I said that you think that the ministry is there to "serve you." Not meaning that you are going around to Baptist sites in an attempt to do something for yourself. You are upset and trying to help a friend, though in a totally wrong way, in my opinion. I was saying that you expect the organization to serve you in the sense that it must listen to you and treat you as if you have some kind of say in the day-to-day action of the organization. Perhaps this is why Baptists are so against so-called "parachuch" organizations, because they cannot control what goes on in them. And no, you cannot, because you aren't a part of the leadership and they aren't REQUIRED to pay any heed to you no matter how much you donate.

You also misunderstand what the church is. The church is not the deacons serving the people, not at all. The deacons are servants, who minister to the needs of the church. But the definition of the church is the fellowship of all believers. This includes the local communities of believers of whatever denomination as well as believers around the world who are a part of Christ's Church. The church serves one another. As believers, we have a duty to serve and love one another. It's not just the pastor's job or the deacons' job, it's the job of every believer. It is our job to love our neighbor as ourself. So, the duty of VOM is not to serve you as a stakeholder in the organization, but for you to serve other believers through VOM. It is just a tool and it is a tool to reach a specific group of believers. You should respect the leadership of that organization to minister as they see need. If you don't like it, don't support it.

Once again you have a choice, stand by and hold your breath and do nothing. Wait for the storm to pass. Or get off your chair, make a phone call, email, or write a letter to the VOM and express that you are not satisfied with the way they handled this situation.

I'll take door #3, I'll continue to sit and read my VOM newsletter(just got one two days ago) and rejoice in how the Lord is using them around the world. I will also continue trying to be an edification to the believers, whether I agree or not.

I don't have a problem with them being a news magazine. That's what they are and what they should be. I was counting on that fact to get this story published (once again not for me, but to rally prayer support for this missionary, which is me serving someone else and not myself). However I'm total against them only printing stories from listed persecuted nations. This is not hard to figure out. That means they are only interested in the ratings that will bring in more money. The top dollar.

They are NOT a news organization. The newsletter does nothing more than reflect what they are doing around the world. That's like saying that the CLA is not about defending Christians, it's about reporting the news because they send out a newsletter. It's totally illogical. I don't pay for my copy of the newsletter, do you? Where's this "top dollar" coming from that you're talking about? The persecuted Church is often forgotten, unfortunately, so if they wanted ratings, they would get into something much more popular and that sold a lot more.

Tell me young man, where is the church? Where the church is, there will be persecution.

The Church is wherever Christians are. I don't knock them for having specific criteria for who they serve. They can't be everything for everyone. You really need to change your outlook on what the Church is and what it's purpose is. It's a private organization that has a policy for doing things. If you don't like it, don't support it, but please don't go around trying to drag their name through the mud because they didn't satisfy your brand of Christian consumerism.

[Danny Carlton]

VOM is located about an hour north of where I live. I've looked over their web site, and seen a lot of what they do, and frankly, they come across to me as a bit of a sham. They push a few attention grabbing stories, but are very sloppy with any sort of follow up. And for what money they are always asking for, I really don't see that they're doing all that much. There are other groups that cover persecution much better (Compass to name one) which get little notice. I've seen this kind of thing before where one group with a lot of PR glitz grabs the "lead" spot and hogs all the media spotlight while actually doing very little. We've been dealing that with CAH, where a million dollar a year "foundation" grabs most of the funding while doing little, while other organizatiosn work hard on what crumbs are left over.

[BGerald]

Thank you Mr. Danny for informing us of other orginizations that publish stories of persecution. If you know of any other, would you post them please. I'd like to contact them with this story.

[BGerald]

Young man I see where your brand of Christianity lies and as far as I'm concerned you are as liberal as the banner at the buttom of your post. I'm not about dragging anyone in the mud. I'm about Christians taking a stand agaisnt the evil in this world and doing it with excellence and intigrity.

Church history, especially the orginzation of Church Gov is in scripture and I'm not mistaken. Acts. Read it. Until you do, I' will not consider to be of any scriptural authority.

Paul wrote of the Church Gov structure in many places. I have dealt with the likes of you many times in the past. It is my experrience folks with a weak spiritual backbone like yours are the type of christains that are willing and ready to take the easy road than taking a stand. This will be my last post to you specifically because this is unfruitful and I'm not accustomed to casting my pearls before swine. Pearls are to valueable to be trodden under foot.

Again, this is a call to all christians to take a stand and call the VOM and express to them that the policy on the Listed country rule to be changed and to Pray. If this young man does not want to do the right thing that is on his hands at judgment day.

For those of you who homeschool, this issue ought to concern you. You may oneday face this same opposition in this country. If that happens it will be because Christians like this young man are not willing to stand for right but instead will take the easy road and sit back in his chair holding his breath and waiting until the Storm passes. Let tell you this. This storm will not pass by but will remain if Christians don't take a stand.


Take a stand folks and pray

[John81]

Young man I see where your brand of Christianity lies and as far as I'm concerned you are as liberal as the banner at the buttom of your post.
Take a stand folks and pray

Just curious, where is the liberal banner? I looked but didn't see one.

[matie-k]

Must be that "powered by MAC" one. This sure has been an interesting read!

[kevinmiller]

Young man I see where your brand of Christianity lies and as far as I'm concerned you are as liberal as the banner at the buttom of your post. I'm not about dragging anyone in the mud. I'm about Christians taking a stand agaisnt the evil in this world and doing it with excellence and intigrity.

Hm, not sure what banner is so liberal. I'm not a liberal Christian either, since a liberal interprets the Bible "liberally." lol
I interpret it literally. It's funny how people will condemn others as liberal when they dare disagree. Forgive me, sir, but I'm not a conformist. I have no intention of fitting into any kind of mold because I'm expected to. The Bible comes first and foremost and I attempt to use Biblical discernment in all matters.

Church history, especially the orginzation of Church Gov is in scripture and I'm not mistaken. Acts. Read it. Until you do, I' will not consider to be of any scriptural authority.

I have read it. I actually did a study in Acts on the church, as a matter of fact. Do I have any Scriptural authority now? :frog

Paul wrote of the Church Gov structure in many places. I have dealt with the likes of you many times in the past. It is my experrience folks with a weak spiritual backbone like yours are the type of christains that are willing and ready to take the easy road than taking a stand. This will be my last post to you specifically because this is unfruitful and I'm not accustomed to casting my pearls before swine. Pearls are to valueable to be trodden under foot.

What am I exactly when you say the "likes of me?" Those contemptable people that don't follow after vain traditions? Hey, that's me! Weak spiritual backbone? That always drives me crazy when people judge a person's spirituality based on what they believe without knowing who they are at all. For me, there is more to a relationship with Christ than believing all the "right" doctrine. I'm sorry you had to cast your precious pearls about on such an ungrateful person as myself. Do be assured that I have been careful not to step on them. :coffee

For those of you who homeschool, this issue ought to concern you. You may oneday face this same opposition in this country. If that happens it will be because Christians like this young man are not willing to stand for right but instead will take the easy road and sit back in his chair holding his breath and waiting until the Storm passes. Let tell you this. This storm will not pass by but will remain if Christians don't take a stand.

You may be surprised to know that it isn't just me that believes this. As much as you'd like to single out me as being the heretic of the bunch, there are others here who believe the same way but don't want to get involved because of the brow-beating they'll receive from people like you. Since you have stated that you won't be responding to me anymore, I imagine you won't be back, so I bid you adieu. :smile

[Anon]

Isn't this the second thread on the Hooper family? I posted in the other one...