Are Denominations/Affiliations a Good Thing?

[Jerry]

I believe that comes from a misinterpretation of Scripture. You have posted Scripture saying that we should separate from an unrepentant Christian who is acting in gross sin. No one has ever ONCE posted a verse to say that we are to separate from a born-again believer because of doctrine.

Then you have a selective memory - we have posted that exact thing many times on these boards.

Here's one passage:

Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Here's another:

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

There are others.

Could you name some of those denominations in the Bible?

The Sadducees and Pharisees were two denominations of Judaism. Early Christianity was also called a sect in the NT - sect means "denomination". Jesus never rebuked them because they were part of a sect, but because of what they believed or did wrong.

Acts 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

[kevinmiller]

"Titus 3:10-11 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Look up what reject means, it doesn't mean just disagree with, it means to shun and avoid. There are many verses that teach separation from those that teach false doctrine... As far as what you plan to do in korea that is your business, but remember 1 Corinthians 15:33.

"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."

Seen it a number of times...

A heretic. What is a heretic? It seems to go further into explaining that by saying it is one that is subverted and sins, being condemned. That would indicate that either he is unsaved or in some kind of gross sin. If we look at examples in the Bible, Christians were never rejected based on doctrinal differences. These verses that talk of separation are always in regard to gross unrepentant sin or to people who were never saved to begin with. We are not told to separate or "shun" true Christians who are pure in their walk with God but believe differently on doctrinal issues.

How can working with people who believe differently corrupt me? We don't work on a ministry together so that we can discuss Calvinism vs. Free Will or the doctrine of baptism, we work together to so that we can have an impact on others for Christ. The goal is to encourage believers to grow in their faith, help homeschooling families establish their families in education based on God's word, and have a positive Christian influence on them. Doctrine doesn't come up.

Not only that, but a person's belief in Calvinism, etc. is not an evil communication. They are still Christians and pure through the Word of God.

[Anon]

The church in the NT was a very seperated thing. And back then, you were either Jewish, Christian, or pagan. I think the dividing lines were more apparent....but today we just need more discernment. God tells us in the last days it will be basically "perilous" and harder to live right, including harder to discern sound doctrine. Do not let a basically "good" Presbyterian or Charasmatic fool you into thinking otherwise. Yeah its fine to say "hi" and be friendly, but if you become buddy-buddy with them, you are likely to fall into the neoevangelical "all religions are okay as long as we love souls and love Jesus" kind of thing.

A church is a "local assembly of believers" by its very definition. True there is a universal group of believers, but the church is LOCAL by its very wording. Who is the pastor of the universal church? Who takes up the tithes? Who disciplines you out? Who baptizes you? Who votes in the deacons? Who ARE the deacons? The Bible says the body needs all members, including eyes, hands, whatever... how in the world is an "eye" in Korea going to help me here in Philly? However, every member of our LOCAL church is extremely necessary.

[Jerry]

A heretic is someone who believes doctrinal heresy - ie. deliberately holding to doctrine that is contrary to what the apostles taught/what the Bible teaches.

Practically speaking, a heretic would be anyone who refuses to believe what their church teaches (granted, that in itself doesn't make their church right - that is why we need to search the Scriptures for ourselves, but if after studying it out we come to different doctrinal conclusions, then it is up to us to find a church that lines up with the Bible, and not be a heretic in another church).

If we look at examples in the Bible, Christians were never rejected based on doctrinal differences.

We have just shown you various verses where they were to be separated from and disciplined for false doctrine. So, quit saying never, and quit saying no one has shown you from the Bible where it states this - because we just did AGAIN.

[Anon]

Yeah, hate to say it, but read your NT again. Its FULL of warnings not to accept people who offer new or different teachings other than the exact things Paul taught the churches during his travels.

[Guest Guest]

A heretic. What is a heretic? It seems to go further into explaining that by saying it is one that is subverted and sins, being condemned. That would indicate that either he is unsaved or in some kind of gross sin.

Heretic just means false doctrine. Rather strait forward. If someone is rejecting a clear teaching of the bible they are embracing heresy.

If we look at examples in the Bible, Christians were never rejected based on doctrinal differences.

Please show me one example of a doctrinal difference among believers in the bible. :Green There are none stated except Hymenaeus and Philetus, who may or may not have been saved.
.

[kevinmiller]

Then you have a selective memory - we have posted that exact thing many times on these boards.

Here's one passage:

Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Here's another:

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

There are others.

Could you name some of those denominations in the Bible?

The Sadducees and Pharisees were two denominations of Judaism. Early Christianity was also called a sect in the NT - sect means "denomination". Jesus never rebuked them because they were part of a sect, but because of what they believed or did wrong.

Acts 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

The only verses that could have a bearing on this are those posted from 2nd Thessalonians. The first ones are clearly dealing with someone who was not saved to begin with. I believe that we have to look at the passage in Thessalonians in context. We need to find out what Paul was admonishing in the epistle. Also, a brother walking "disorderly" is indicative of a Christian who is immoral or in some sin. So, really the only verse is the one that talks about obeying the epistle. I'll have to do a further word study on that because of the many other verses that tell us to be united and to walk together and that Paul fellowshipped with many Christians who believed incorrect doctrine.

The sects idea primarily comes from a group of people who weren't saved to begin with so I don't believe it applies to the NT church. The other mentions of sect are with reference to non-Christians referring to Christians or a specific group of Christians but were not groups or names that Christians took on themselves. Nowhere is there any Scripture that talks about having different denominations and groups based on beliefs.

[Guest Guest]

Just a thought... be careful about using that word, "heretic", in a discussion (even if you're just examining the definition of it). I've seen it get really nasty before. :smile

[Anon]

Unity and walking together means believing the same thing. It does not mean ignoring each other's doctrine just to get along.

In the cases of not believing the same thing, such as circumcision, was because Christianity was as a whole changing from Judaism to Christianity and there was alot of confusion that had to be cleared up. That does not apply to us, because we now have a complete copy of Scripture and no longer have any confusion that needs to be cleared up (well, you'd think anyway! LOL!)

[Guest Guest]

Also, a brother walking "disorderly" is indicative of a Christian who is immoral or in some sin.

Yes, but false doctrine is sin. I hope we can agree on that at least. If not...

[pep_3000]

Denominations are good in the sense that they keep the body of Christ from open warfare over theologically debatable issues, personal convictions, ect.
They are bad in the sense that they can become fiefdoms, and spend most of their time fighting with one another.

[Anon]

Denominations are good in the sense that they keep the body of Christ from open warfare over theologically debatable issues, personal convictions, ect.
They are bad in the sense that they can become fiefdoms, and spend most of their time fighting with one another.

That's pride though, not denominations per se.

[kevinmiller]

The church in the NT was a very seperated thing. And back then, you were either Jewish, Christian, or pagan. I think the dividing lines were more apparent....but today we just need more discernment. God tells us in the last days it will be basically "perilous" and harder to live right, including harder to discern sound doctrine. Do not let a basically "good" Presbyterian or Charasmatic fool you into thinking otherwise. Yeah its fine to say "hi" and be friendly, but if you become buddy-buddy with them, you are likely to fall into the neoevangelical "all religions are okay as long as we love souls and love Jesus" kind of thing.

A church is a "local assembly of believers" by its very definition. True there is a universal group of believers, but the church is LOCAL by its very wording. Who is the pastor of the universal church? Who takes up the tithes? Who disciplines you out? Who baptizes you? Who votes in the deacons? Who ARE the deacons? The Bible says the body needs all members, including eyes, hands, whatever... how in the world is an "eye" in Korea going to help me here in Philly? However, every member of our LOCAL church is extremely necessary.

The dividing lines were between believers and unbelievers. Show me where the church was separated amongst themselves. I don't advocate working with someone who is in a denomination that teaches a salvation other than what we know to be Biblical, I'm talking about born-again believers. It's impossible to hold to the Baptist view of separation because you would end up separating over every issue if you took it literally. I think you hold to the views that you do because you have been so separated that you have never had the opportunity to know anyone of a differing belief. Maybe not, but it kind of sounds that way. Especially since you put quotes around "good" Presbyterian. It's not about being good or bad. It's about being a Christian. I can fellowship with a Presbyterian or a Charismatic and have sweet fellowship because they are part of the same family. The errors of local church doctrine have divided Christ's family, it has done nothing to unite them. We are all a part of the same family and yet we reject our brothers and sisters because they don't agree with us. I'm glad my sister doesn't reject me when we disagree on political issues. I also won't reject a Christian with whom I can have sweet fellowship in Christ over a different belief.

That doesn't lead to an "all religions are okay" belief. Not at all. I know a lot of people who don't believe the "local church doctrine" who are conservative and separate from the world.

Actually, a chuch, by definition, is an assembly of believers. It's not necessarily local. Christ said that He would build His church. He didn't say that He would build His churchES. There is one Church of God and that is made up of those who belong to the Body of Christ. I noticed that no one has approached that verse yet on the Church being the Body of Christ. And no, there isn't a world pastor or world deacons, that is the structure of the church on a local level. Some of the other things I won't address because they come with the thinking that goes along with local church doctrine. Just as we have state governments that are a part of the greater government of the United States, so we have local governing bodies for the church and yet there is one Church, which is the unity of the Believers.

Yeah, hate to say it, but read your NT again. Its FULL of warnings not to accept people who offer new or different teachings other than the exact things Paul taught the churches during his travels.

Those were examples of rejecting the doctrine of those who teach that which is against the doctrine with which they were received, the doctrine of salvation. They didn't reject believers based on doctrine. If that is the case, why didn't Paul separate from the Corinthians or Ephesians, etc., etc.?

Unity and walking together means believing the same thing. It does not mean ignoring each other's doctrine just to get along.

In the cases of not believing the same thing, such as circumcision, was because Christianity was as a whole changing from Judaism to Christianity and there was alot of confusion that had to be cleared up. That does not apply to us, because we now have a complete copy of Scripture and no longer have any confusion that needs to be cleared up (well, you'd think anyway! LOL!)

You can't be united with your family and walk together unless you believe the same politically, doctrinally, and in opinion? There is always going to be confusion about doctrine, it's because we are human and must interpret the Bible as humans, though hopefully we all seek God in our interpretation of the Scriptures. But, as humans, we still err.

[kevinmiller]

A heretic is someone who believes doctrinal heresy - ie. deliberately holding to doctrine that is contrary to what the apostles taught/what the Bible teaches.

Practically speaking, a heretic would be anyone who refuses to believe what their church teaches (granted, that in itself doesn't make their church right - that is why we need to search the Scriptures for ourselves, but if after studying it out we come to different doctrinal conclusions, then it is up to us to find a church that lines up with the Bible, and not be a heretic in another church).



We have just shown you various verses where they were to be separated from and disciplined for false doctrine. So, quit saying never, and quit saying no one has shown you from the Bible where it states this - because we just did AGAIN.

Actually, a heretic in Titus 3 means someone who causes division within the Body. Look at the verse preceding it:
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

It is a man that causes divisions and schisms within the local church Body.

[kevinmiller]

Actually, heretic doesn't just mean false doctrine, look at my previous response. Do a word study on heretic. It doesn't mean that they simply believe false doctrine.

Are you kidding? Paul was constantly addressing differing beliefs that the churches had and he reproved them on a regular basis. From meat offered to idols to circumcision, to eating with gentiles, to tongues, etc. There are numerous verses where Paul rebuked or tried to set a church right on its doctrine. It's definitely in there. Surely you don't believe that they agreed on everything? Then you would have to assume that there was another church of born again believers that Paul completely ignored. What were they, not a part of the Body of Christ because they had false doctrine in the church? Preposterous. Don't you see that as Christians we are a part of ONE Body, the Body of Christ?

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

There are many members and we are all members of ONE body, in Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Members of what, the local church? NO! Members of the body of Christ, nothing more.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Head of what? THE Church. What church? THE Church. Christ is the head of the church, not the churchES.

The only way that anyone can possibly believe local church doctrine is to ignore Scripture and go by circumstantial evidence of verses pulled out of context. The Bible clearly teaches that there is one Body and the only way to believe otherwise is to ignore those verses and rely on tradition.