"Misquoting Jesus" destroying the faith of Christians

[Guest Guest]

Well Will' date=' You cannot accept the data because of your mind set. Yes there are errors in the over 5,000 N. T. Greek manuscripts we have, but the significate thing is that the majority of these variations are minute. There is not variaton in truth. God has preserved His Word, not like you want it to be, but the way God wanted it.You do not understand textual criticism. Conservative textual critics say they know for certain 98 percent of the original wording of Scripture. But I know you cannot accept this. So be it, you are entitled to your opinion. It amazes me how you can make a blanket statement that all people that hold to the critical text are blind. I have know many great Christian men who have held this view, Whose shoe latchet you would not be able to undo.[/quote']

That's mighty haughty of you to say! Which 98% is correct, how do we KNOW that, and what says that the other 2% that's supposedly wrong doesn't teach us wrong doctrine? You have no final authority except your and others' education. 'Tis a case of "The Scholarship-Only Controversy."

[Guest Guest]

The Catholic "church" killed thousands upon thousands of people during the Dark Ages because they possessed a copy of the Bible' date=' or they refused to accept the "church's" interpretation of the scriptures.[/quote']

I really don't see this as being possible considering there was no printing press until the mid fifteenth century. And which Bible were they supposedly possessing? I believe the Dark Ages end around 1000, right? So we know it wasn't the KJV.

[Jerry]

No, the Dark Ages ended with the Protestant Reformation.

[Guest Guest]

No' date=' the Dark Ages ended with the Protestant Reformation.[/quote']

Respectfully, I (along with every historian I have ever heard of) disagree. I know that sometimes history has a way of spoiling our ideas and wishes, this doesn't however give us a right to change that history.

[Jerry]

Aside from you, I am sure everyone else on these Baptists boards would agree with me. The Dark Ages was the period of time where the Catholic church suppressed the Bible from the public - and that is historically verifiable. It wasn't until after the Protestant Reformation that they produced an English Bible in their attempt to change and confuse (through their notes and corruptions of the text) what the Protestants were saying.

[Guest Guest]

With all due respect Jerry (I understand you are older than I and that you did not go to college, so please don't let me come across as patronizing) but the "Dark Ages", or as the term is used scholastically, does not necessarily have anything to do with religion. It's freshman year stuff that the Dark Ages was merely a time when knowledge slowed down. It was a time when architectural development ceased, literary efforts were stalled, and education was put on a back burner. This was not dictated by any entity (such as the Roman Church) but a product of the human condition at that time. To say it ended with the protestant reformation would require us to totally ignore the renaissance. I know that you want every thing you say and believe to be true with all your heart, but please try to use a little objectivity and open mindedness. Don't just say you want and seek the truth, but actually do it. Consider other points of view, not just those that blindly further the beliefs you have already committed yourself to. If you have any credible worth while historians that proffer another vantange point on this issue, I would be more than willing to look into them and consider them.

[Jerry]

I was not giving some scholarly definition - but a religious one. The Catholic church was responsible for the suppression of the truth for 1000+ years. Except for a remnant of true believers outside of that apostate church/religion, true Bible knowledge and doctrine would have been lost - very fitting to call those years the Dark Ages.

[Guest Guest]

I know that you want that to be true to the point that not even Christ himself could convince you otherwise, therefore I will make no such attempt. Inconsistency runs rampant. Which Church do you suppose preserved the manuscripts from which King James' commissioned translators created the 1611 bible? I'll agree that there were sects of believers whom were never considered catholic. Every source I can find calls these sects agnostics. And believe you me, based on the research I have found, you (as a "baptist") would not associate with these non-Catholic groups. I know you are intrenched in your views, and I can admire that on some level. Loyalty is precious virtue. However, wants and beliefs are no match for facts and reality. The pen is not red.

[Psalms18_28]

interesting chart: http://www.anabaptist.com/ChurchHistory.pdf?ChartID=15

interesting history about the anabaptist: http://www.answers.com/topic/anabaptist

[Psalms18_28]

Seriously now. What gives the Harlot the authority to decide what is and what is not acceptable? You may say that I am hateful or whatever; Yes, I hate the system that is going to send my grandparents to HELL because it has clouded their minds

That's exactly what I was thinking. They probably felt it was heresy because it doesn't have any Catholic teaching.
edited: looked up bible timeline http://www.lightforisrael.org/history/BibleTimeEng.htm to see if there was a bible before Wycliffe

[Guest Guest]

The Dark Ages and the reign of the Catholic system began waning around the time of Martin Luther, who, even though he was incredibly messed up, at least began the upheaval that led to the Catholic Whore losing her grip on the world. His effective rebellion began around 1514 if I remember correctly, and the "Church" held full sway at that time.

Other than that, I don't understand your point, if you were posing one.

[Guest Guest]

interesting chart: http://www.anabaptist.com/ChurchHistory.pdf?ChartID=15

I think any "baptist" that finds the origins of their doctirnes with the Paulicians and Waldenses should look into what these agnostic groups believed first. Some scholars have attributed a few of the gnostic gospels to them. And I believe this board has went through the origins of the "baptist" church before. ALL credible resources conclusively establish that the modern "baptist" church comes from the anabaptist, which is a movement born of the reformation. Vainful dreamers have tried for centuries to connect the "baptist" church to some pre/concurrent Roman movement and all have failed miserably. After their failures, they attempted to forge documents and "create" their own history, rather than accepting the truth (which they professed to be seeking). No doubt, some on this board continue to follow a proven falsehood out of vanity, which is relatively common in some circles. They take a "if we say it long enough it will be true" approach to history and have no respect for the scholastic efforts of there own who searched, found nothing, and moved on. This continued denial of the truth was one of the many reasons the Lord used to lead me from the church I was formerly a member of. The attached chart is nothing more than propoganda which insults all of out intelligence and faith.

[Psalms18_28]

I don't really think they are connected together myself, but I do believe there were people who believed the same as we do. I mean, anyone can be saved without the catholic church. Like this guy:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/patrick.html


http://www.learnthebible.org/history.htm

[Jerry]

Which Church do you suppose preserved the manuscripts from which King James' commissioned translators created the 1611 bible?

It was the Waldensians and Anabaptists that preserved the Scriptures - that handcopied the Bible texts the Reformers used in making the English Bibles. And the majority of these groups were Baptist in doctrine and practice.

[Jerry]

jonbaptiste, why do you frequent a BAPTIST message board and persist in knocking Baptist beliefs and history? If you don't like our history, keep it to yourself or complain and post your junk on an Anti-Baptist message board - it has no place here.