Disciples or Not?

[John81]

Can one be saved and yet not be a disciple of Christ?

[Jerry]

Discipleship comes after salvation - and it is possible that someone may not take that step. They may have learned enough Bible to come to the Lord for salvation, but never taken it beyond that.

[John81]

Isn't a disciple one who follows Christ? How can one be saved without following Christ?

There are references in Scripture where Christ told folks they must forsake all and follow Him. When the rich young man wanted salvation Christ told him to sell all and follow Him. Christ repeatedly stated that those who came to Him must carry their cross daily and follow Him.

Isn't repentence a necessary part of salvation? Isn't repentence a turning from our self-centered sinful ways and turning to following Christ?

Can a person truly be saved and yet never follow Christ?

Scripture commands that we make disciples of all people. Are those who say they accept Christ into their hearts yet refuse to actually follow Christ disciples? Has a person truly repented if they don't follow Christ? If they are not following Christ then by default they are yet following sinful ways.

[Jerry]

Don't confuse the call to discipleship with the requirements for getting saved. God does not ask us to give up everything to receive Him for salvation (though He does require that we repent of our sin). The requirements for discipleship are something that only a dedicated believer can do - not an unbeliever turning to the Lord for salvation.

The word disciple means a learner - it is possible for a true believer not to get grounded in the Scriptures and not to be part of a good church, therefore possibly never getting to this point. No, I am not referring to someone who never has any fruit as a believer, but someone who doesn't walk closely with the Lord - we see that all around us everyday - even we backslide and struggle at times.

[DaveW]

But there were many who "followed" Christ in His earthly ministry who were not saved. Just to throw another log on the fire!

I have a good instance of what you are talking about.

A long time ago, Billy - I'm not sure which one now - possibly Graham (while he was still preaching it somewhat straight! :roll ) came to Perth, and my Mother went to hear him preach.

She was saved that night, but left the stadium with no follow up and no further contact.

My Father was saved in Vietnam at around the same time, but again circumstances meant that he never saw that man again and had no other followup.

They each just didn't know where to go.

Years passed by, they went to Canberra to visit with friends whom they hadn't seen for many years.
Sunday came around and their friends went to church (IFB).
They went along - to be polite really - and heard the message, both realising that this was they heard all those years before - they had never even talked about it to each other, but now they both knew this was what they had heard.

Neither of them felt they needed to be "saved" again as they were at that time sure and still are that they trusted the Lord for salvation all those years before.

This is EXPERIENCE, not Scripture, but they were Scripturally Saved in the '60's and then Scripturally Baptised in the '80's! when they started to go to church back here in Perth.

Were they saved? All evidence says Yes!
Were they disciples for the intervening time? I would say not!
Are they now - Absolutely, and serving in that same church!

Just my :2cents

Do I get change? :lol:

[Jerry]

Yes, there were some disciples mentioned in the Gospels who were not even saved. And they left when they heard somethings they didn't like.

Strong's definition of disciple is a learner, a pupil - which the lost can be. Though the Biblical requirements for a disiple are for believers to follow the Lord wholeheartedly and place Him first above all else - which only the saved can do.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines disciple as:

1. A learner; a scholar; one who receives or professes to receive instruction from another; as the disciples of Plato.

2. A follower; an adherent to the doctrines of another. Hence the constant attendants of Christ were called his disciples; and hence all Christians are called his disciples, as they profess to learn and receive his doctrines and precepts.

In the second sense, all true believers are disciples - but as has been stated, the NT gives stronger requirements than these.

[John81]

Doesn't true repentance mean that we turn from our sinful ways to follow Christ?

Scripture indicates many "followed" Christ because of His miracles and such, but when Christ put forth the hard truths of the Gospel, many turned away. They were not truly willing to repent and accept the cost of being true disciples of Christ.


Dave: Your example regarding your parents is similar to my own experience. I accepted Christ and it was my desire to follow Christ but I didn't know what that really meant and I received no discipling until many years later. However, though I wasn't following Christ as I should, my desire was to do so during those years and I was following Him according to the understanding I had at the time. Thanks be to God, He rewards our sincere desires to follow Him and he brought a fine Christian brother into my life who became a close friend and he brought me to a wonderful Baptist pastor. Through their discipling efforts, I finally learned what I had been yearning to know during those years.

Scripture obviously doesn't say we will or must follow Christ perfectly (as we can't at this time) but Scripture does say that if we love Him and are truly His we will abide in Him, obey Him, and follow Him as His disciples.

Scripture clearly states the road to heaven is narrow and few find it. If those who just "accept Christ" yet never follow Christ are bound for heaven then that would seem to mean the road isn't that narrow and that more than a few are heaven bound.

85% of Americans claim to be Christians, and while I don't recall the percentage, a high percentage of them claim to "saved" and/or "born again". Of these, only a very small percentage actually follow Christ. Are all of these biblically in Christ and heaven bound?

[Madeline]

The Bible tells us that the moral conditions to meet to be saved is that we must recognise Jesus as the Messiah (1 Tim 3:16), must repent of our sins and put on Christ (Acts 2 - Rom. 6). And we must obey the Lord's Will (Heb. 3). Verse 14 in Heb 3. God connects deliberate disobedience to unbelief (see verse 19 - Heb 3). No Christian will obey Him perfectly (we live in a morally fallen world and will sin), that is why God gave us an advocate - Jesus Christ. Certainly, we are not to deliberately sin. The word, "disciple" would have to be examined more closely. Are we talking about deliberately sinning and simply igoring the teaching of Christ? Or are we talking about those who believe, have repented of their sins and then walks within their faith mostly untaught? The question may not be able to be answered by any human being. God knows who are His. We can only accept a person is a Christian by examining the choices he/she makes in life.

Love,
Madeline

[jchahl]

Seems like you're trying to make salvation into this long process. I always thought that salvation was instantaneous, i.e. call upon the Lord and you're saved.

[John81]

Actually, I'm just discussing, not trying to make anything into anything.

To be clear, no I don't believe salvation is a process.

Can one simply say "I accept Jesus as my Saviour" and then go on their way living their lives for themselves and they are born again or does one truly have to repent of their sins, which means turning from living their lives of sin and following Christ rather than their own selves?

Being a disciple of Christ is a lifelong process as one should continually yield themselves completely to Christ and learn and grow more in the Spirit over time, but being a disciple of Christ must also have a beginning which should come at the moment of salvation.

If one is truly accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour then that should mean the desire of their heart is now toward Christ and not toward self. Not that they instantly become perfect disciples of Christ, but the desire of their heart is to follow Christ and their walk from that point on will reflect that.

This stands in stark contrast to those who say a "sinners prayer" or even to those who grow up in church and proclaim they accept Jesus as their Saviour yet the desire of their hearts are still self-centered and their walk reflects that. Are these saved and heaven bound also though they are not following Christ?

[Jerry]

Considering what is posted in this thread, all true believers should be disciples to some extent - but we know that the Biblical examples/requirements for discipleship are not followed by many. Perhaps we could say, if they never followed Christ in discipleship then they are not saved - however, if they are saved, there should be some evidences of discipleship during the course of their walk with the Lord (even if not right away).

[John81]

I notice that a great deal of witnessing and salvation preaching today seems to be of the "accept Jesus into your heart" variety with no mention of the fact we are to surrender our lives to Christ.

How many tens or hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, who have heard this and said an "accept Jesus into your heart" prayer are not biblically saved yet believing they are right with God?

Scripture indicates there will be many who stand before Christ proclaiming they did this, that and the other thing for Christ yet He will declare He never knew them and they will be cast away. How many professing Christians in the world today fall into this category?

Are we being negligent in our salvation efforts? Are we not taking being disciples of Christ seriously enough that we fail to live as such and therefore fail to provide that light to the world?

Why does it seem that truly following Christ is so little preached these days and so little exampled?

[Jerry]

I notice that a great deal of witnessing and salvation preaching today seems to be of the "accept Jesus into your heart" variety with no mention of the fact we are to surrender our lives to Christ.

The Bible does not teach that we are to surrender our lives to Christ to be saved. The Biblical requirements are repentance (of sins, and our previous ways of thinking - about the Lord, etc.) and faith (trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ to save us). Giving our lives over to Christ - ie. surrender - is something we are to do as believers. Romans 12:1-2 was written to believers.

The typical ask Jesus into your heart presentation, and 1-2-3 pray after me, is normally a gospel devoid of repentance. That is what is wrong with it - but to add discipleship to the requirements for being saved is also another gospel.

[John81]

Perhaps I wasn't clear in the way I worded that with regard to "surrendering our lives to Christ".

Repentance not only means a turning away from, but also a turning to. True repentance involves one making the decision to turn away from living our lives according to our sinful nature (which means we are repenting and turning from our sins) and turning to living our lives in Christ (to walk according to His way).

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26, 27

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37, 38

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62

[Jerry]

Again, those are verses regarding discipleship - not salvation.