The first of many questions I have....

[kimberlydm]

[flash=]As I already stated when I introduced myself in the other forum. I come from a long line of radical pentecostal/ holiness/ full gospel believers. Last year I begin having questions re: many topics, I searched and searched for answers, went to my husband, then to our bible study teacher, and then to the pastor. I never could get a good straight biblical answer. With that being said here goes my first question, I hope that I am not out of line by coming here to ask instead of my husband, but I did go to him first but he did not give me a biblical answer, just what he had been taught and heard all these years.....

This is actually a two part question I suppose....The above denomination believes in baptism of the holy spirt with the evidence of speaking in tongues. They say that if you do not speak in tongues that you have not the Holy Spirit. What is this "baptism of the holy spirit" and are these "tongues" for today? I have read and read and read and everything seems to point to that you recieve the holy spirit when you are saved, and this Holy Spirit leads you, guides you, strengthens you....But the way it's been explained to me is that it's kinda like a 2 phase thing...you get saved and later after fasting, prayer, etc...then you get the holy spirit, but to me that would be as if one is only "half saved"....Re: "speaking in tongues", I've yet to find anything that points to where these tongues weren't understood when they took place in the bible. Once instance given to me when I asked was when Paul said he spoke with tongues of angels and men...But is there any instance in the bible that the angels weren't understood? Is it a different language, is there such thing as a prayer language?

I am so eager to find the answers to these. If you respond please feel free to go in depth listing all scriptures or link to a website that has good biblical answers, not just tradition or what good old grand ma says...My eternity is hanging in the balance as well as my children. I have raised them with the pentecostal denominations beliefs and I am so worried now that everything, everything has been just all lies......Thanks so much!!!

[dwayner79]

Wow!

This is a huge topic, and you will find varying opinions even here.

I would start here.

My brief overview is this: Your church was wrong to claim all must speak in tongues. Its a gift like any other gift. Not everyone will speak in tongues. It is, in fact, a lesser gift then some of the others, so its over-emphasis does a disservice to the body. Some will say it is a dead gift. I disagree with that because I do not think I "know as I am known" yet.

I think it is important to demystify tongues a bit because much of the church today is scared of the Holy Spirit. It is not mumbo-jumbo. It is not us loosing all control over our minds and speaking the language of the angels. It is the equivalent of whispering sweet nothings in Christ's ears. Corporate tongues is laid out in the above passage. Any interpretation of the use of the gift of tongues would:
1. not go against scripture
2. would be extolling the glories of God.
3. would encourage, edify and strengthen the body

FWIW, I do not speak in tongues. I was raised baptist, and therefore, I was taught tongues were dead. I know plenty of Godly people whom I love and respect who do speak in tongues. Our church has not had tongues given to the congregation, though most are open to it. We are content to let God deal with us in whatever way he sees fit, but we take verse 39 as the call.

Welcome to OB. This should be fun!

[Revelation3:20]

This is actually a two part question I suppose....The above denomination believes in baptism of the holy spirt with the evidence of speaking in tongues. They say that if you do not speak in tongues that you have not the Holy Spirit.

That wasn't true even before tongues as a gift ceased. "1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" It was not a universal gift.

The we have the purpose of the "tongues" gift. "1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

It was not to show that someone was saved, it was for a sign to those that were unbelievers.

What is this "baptism of the holy spirit" and are these "tongues" for today? I have read and read and read and everything seems to point to that you recieve the holy spirit when you are saved, and this Holy Spirit leads you, guides you, strengthens you....

The points in favor of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" being something "special" beyond what happens at salvation are [bible]John 20:22[/bible] where we see that the apostles at least had received the Holy Ghost before pentecost, [bible]Acts 8:18[/bible] where the Holy Ghost was somehow given through the apostles hands, and [bible]Acts 9:17[/bible] where Paul is "filled" with the Holy Ghost through Ananias laying hands upon him. Throughout NT scriptures "laying on of hands" is viewed as something special done to those who have a special task or problem and somehow the Spirit works through that. I would say the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is some form of special empowerment and or consecration to God, but is not part of salvation. That said these verses show that a believer receives the Holy Ghost upon salvation.[bible]John 7:39[/bible] [bible]Acts 2:38[/bible] [bible]1 Corinthians 6:19[/bible] [bible]2 Timothy 1:14[/bible] [bible]Romans 8:9-16[/bible] [bible]2 Corinthians 5:5[/bible] [bible]1 John 4:13[/bible]

But the way it's been explained to me is that it's kinda like a 2 phase thing...you get saved and later after fasting, prayer, etc...then you get the holy spirit, but to me that would be as if one is only "half saved"....

Biblically that is error. We are saved by grace through faith at the moment of repentance toward God, there are not different levels of "saved", you either are or you are not. It is not by praying enough or fasting enough that we are saved, it is by our heart turning to God and trusting him for the rest. We get the Holy Spirit at salvation too according to the bible.

Re: "speaking in tongues", I've yet to find anything that points to where these tongues weren't understood when they took place in the bible.

Me either.

Once instance given to me when I asked was when Paul said he spoke with tongues of angels and men

That is this verse: "1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Paul is making a contrast, not saying that he actually did speak in a special "angel" tongue. Some think that he is implying that, but he could just as easily be speaking of how angels sound, eloquent and impressive. That could be borne out by what he compares it to. Sounding brass and a cymbal.

is there any instance in the bible that the angels weren't understood?

No, at least not as far as the language they were speaking.

is there such thing as a prayer language?

The only verse that is quoted in support of a "prayer language" is this one. Every other time a prayer is recorded it cannot possibly be considered a prayer language. "1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

This goes back to the fact that the gift of tongues were always real languages in scripture. The "unknown tongue" in this case would be a real language but not known to the one praying. Obviously you would have to have the gift of tongues before this could even happen and I have never met anyone that had the gift of tongues as practiced in scripture.

My eternity is hanging in the balance as well as my children. I have raised them with the pentecostal denominations beliefs and I am so worried now that everything, everything has been just all lies......Thanks so much!!!

Your eternity hangs on whether or not you have repented and turned to Christ alone for salvation. If the pentecostal denominational beliefs you had added anything to grace in your mind and you were always trusting partly in tongues or something else rather than in Christ alone you would be right to question your salvation. However if you did indeed repent and trust Christ believing he alone could and would save you without any works to attain "merit" on your part then you are saved regardless of the fact that you were mislead about important doctrinal issues not related to salvation.

[nymusicman]

This maybe found offensive, by you but as an ex-pentecostal I found this hilarious as well as explaining so much. I believe I heard this from a Curtis Hutson sermon (I may be wrong though) but when God gave the tongues on the day of pentecost it was because God saw thousands of unsaved people that he wanted to do a work in. And they spoke many languages from different nations and regions. Read Acts chapter 2.

Anyway he said that what really counts here was the work that God did. In Acts 2:41 it says 3000 souls were saved. The the tongues was just the tool God implemented.

Curtis gave the analogy like this, he said [not a direct quote]: Getting excited about tongues in this passage is like someone handing you a bag with 1 million dollars in it and you get excited over the bag.

[heartstrings]

This maybe found offensive, by you but as an ex-pentecostal I found this hilarious as well as explaining so much. I believe I heard this from a Curtis Hutson sermon (I may be wrong though) but when God gave the tongues on the day of pentecost it was because God saw thousands of unsaved people that he wanted to do a work in. And they spoke many languages from different nations and regions. Read Acts chapter 2.

Anyway he said that what really counts here was the work that God did. In Acts 2:41 it says 3000 souls were saved. The the tongues was just the tool God implemented.

Curtis gave the analogy like this, he said [not a direct quote]: Getting excited about tongues in this passage is like someone handing you a bag with 1 million dollars in it and you get excited over the bag.

Ain't that the truth.