Rapture Timing – Simplified.

[John Young]

Rapture Timing – Simplified.
By Brother John Young 2-16-2024

While there are many nuanced and complicated terminologies and reasonings for when the rapture will occur, most all consistent positions are divided into two types before (pre) or after (post) the tribulation (or no rapture at all) as described in the Book of Revelation. The primary factor that determines which position one takes is determined by what is believed about Israel and the Church. If they believe Israel and the Church are based on separate covenants, then when they read the Revelation, they must put the rapture BEFORE the tribulation. If they believe the Church takes over, or is part of, Israel’s covenant then they must place the rapture AFTER the tribulation or to reject the consept of rapture altogether and simply maintain a resurrection at the end of the tribulation or millennium. Saints (believers) appear throughout the Book of Revelation and are only saved from tribulation at the return of Christ at the end of the book so many do accept this as a reason to reject a rapture and simply opt for the resurrection.

In the Book of Revelation, churches by name are dealt with at the beginning of the book and Israel by name near the middle to end of the book, yet saints and sinners in general throughout. Those who maintain a separation of covenants (Pre-tribulationist) will simply keep each group separate and see the rapture occurring in the chapters dealing with the churches (chapters 1-5) and will take the book progressively in order. Yet those who do not (post-tribulationist) must make references to Israel’s or saint’s gathering apply also to the church as well (chapters 14 and 20-22). If this separation of covenants is not maintained, then the progressive chronology of the Book of revelation itself also cannot be maintained and must be split and overlaid in order to make proper sense (some less constant and unconstrained pre and post adherents will split and overlay the book up to four times to make their given theology work! We will not deal with those here.).

As an example of a truly consistent pre-tribulationist, Pastor Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe Arizona teaches a Post-trib pre-wrath theology were chapters 1-11 of Revelation are chronological then starting at 12-16 is read as taking place with 1-11, before continuing again to 17-22.

             
(www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/chronology_of_revelation_chart.jpg)

This has the simplifying effect of ensuring Churches, Israel, and Saints, and their terminology, line up with a single rapture and return event, after the tribulation. If it is not done it results in either a pre-tribulation rapture or multi-rapture event depending on the person’s misunderstanding of Church and Israeli covenants. While simplifying and compelling, this popular position, as do most Post-tribulation (and many pre-tribulation) rapture theologies, falls prey to several issues. 

1. It must split and break up the chapter order of Revelation in order to work.
2. It must conflate terms (ie. insist, without proving, that one term also means the other).
3. It must overlay the seals, trumpet judgments, and vial judgments.

If one removes these three common abuses of the Book of Revelation, the books own progressive structure takes shape into four distinct stages of events witch tend to also support a pre-tribulation rapture for church body while keeping the church and Israeli covenants intact and consistent with the overall context of scripture in both Old and New testaments. These divisions can be summed up as:

(wwwfacebook.com/BaptistChristians/photos/pb.100064810983595.-2207520000/3464239283588565/?type=3)

In summery: 

1. Pre-Tribulationist must keep terminology, and the covenants of Church and Israel SEPARATE, and must keep the book of Revelation in progressive order to be consistent with a true pe-rapture theology. 

2. Post-Tribulationist must CONFLATE terms and covenants, split up the book order, and overlay the Judgments to remain consistent with a Post-Rapture theology.

3. Many are unable to do either so end up with a hybrid of theologies gleaned from those who have gone before them. Many are also so confused by the rapture concept that they simply allegorize much of Revelation to come up with their position on the rapture or in order to do away with it altogether.

4. The two examples above will most likely be the simplest examples of Pre and Post tribulation raptures that are most consistent with the Book of Revelation. Feel free to examine both to determine which is most consistent with the scriptures in order to come to their theological conclusion.

References: Brother Anderson does a good job in presenting his position and is well worth examination His material can be found here: https://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page9.html

My work on this topic is ongoing. What I have can be found here: https://johnyoungblogs.blogspot.com or here: https://www.facebook.com/BaptistChristians or here: www.youtube.com/@BaptistChristians

Revelation: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPBnTVkjTpCJl70DpxmR1R5OXjRQbTe4j

[Pastor Matt]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:02 PM, John Young said:

My work on this topic is ongoing.

Great article and thanks for sharing. I don't think this is a topic that we'll ever stop studying...there's a lot to digest and you are correct in some are confused by the rapture concept. 

[Jerry]

No offense to you, John - but Stephen Anderson is one person you should NEVER recommend. He is a false, blasphemous teacher who has ruined his family and his (and other) churches. He is not someone you should look towards for any doctrinal issues. He is so full of hatred and is a dangerous extremist - denying the holocaust, denying homosexuals can get saved (despite 1 Corinthians 6:9-11), among other issues.

[John Young]

10 hours ago, Jerry said:

Stephen Anderson is one person you should NEVER recommend.

It is said when there is an issue you should cut it off at the source. Like it or not his view is the primary alternative to the Pre-tribulational view among independent Baptist. It is also a quantifiable source that can be referenced, as I have no interest in discussing ever variant views. I've previously discussed my opinion regarding Brother Anderson and for why I still consider him my brother in Christ and will continue to treat him as such. So I am aware of his views but will not be debussing Anti-Anderson rabbit trails here. For the sake of a proper discussion, I'm limiting it to his post-tribulational doctrine here and won't deal with his other errant views or teachings.

Edited February 19 by John Young

[SureWord]

I thought Steve Anderson was a Mid-Tribulation teacher.

Also, the four judgements  in Revelation are more likely four accounts of the same judgement (like four gospels) and not four phases of the Second Coming.

[John Young]

2 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I thought Steve Anderson was a Mid-Tribulation teacher.

Post-trib Pre-wrath according to their format but Mid-trim if you go with the common dispensational format. there are also other various diferances than the common Mid-trib view as well but not overly significant to the rapture timing.

Edited February 19 by John Young

[SureWord]

2 minutes ago, John Young said:

Post-trib Pre-wrath according to their format but Mid-trim if you go with the common dispensational format. there are also other various diferances than the common Mid-trib view as well but not overly significant to the rapture timing.

Yes, I remember a man named Marvin J. Rosenthal popularized this teaching back in the late 80's/early 90's.

[John Young]

4 minutes ago, SureWord said:

the four judgements  in Revelation are more likely four accounts

As far as I can see there is no actual scriptural justification for splitting the book into "four views" other than assertion and opinion. On the contrary the constant use of "and" and "then" shows a progression.

[SGO]

Does any one know of verses that actually state He is coming before the Tribulation?

Here are some commonly used to prove Pre-trib:

 

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,

concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not,

even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,

that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,

with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain

shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

to meet the Lord in the air:

and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

 

Nowhere above does it say anything to indicate before the Tribulation.

 

However here are some verses that actually say when we will be raised:

 

From Paul--

Behold, I show you a mystery;

We shall not all sleep,

but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trump;

for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

(There is the trumpet from Thessalonians.)

 

From John--

And this is the Father's will which has sent me,

that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing,

but should raise it up again

at the last day.

John 6:39

 

And this is the will of him that sent me,

that every one which seeth the Son,

and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:

and I will raise him up

at the last day.

John 6:40

 

No man can come to me,

except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

and I will raise him up

at the last day.

John 6:44

 

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,

hath eternal life; and I will raise him up

at the last day.

John 6:54

 

Martha saith unto him,

I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection 

at the last day.

John 11:24

 

He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words,

hath one that judgeth him:

the word that I have spoken,

the same shall judge him

in the last day.

John12:48

 

... at the last trump, at the last day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jerry]

There are various Biblical reasons for the Pre-tribulation rapture (verses can be provided upon request). These are the ones that come immediately to mind as I am typing this:

1. God has promised that His church will never undergo the wrath of God - of which all seven years are His wrath. This can be verified easily by looking at what Isaiah 13 says about the day of the Lord and then comparing it with Luke 21. Both passages contain the same ideas and even wording - yet what Luke is stating God's people are going through in the endtimes is what Isaiah is saying is the time of wrath.

2. Jesus said the gates of Hell will not prevail against the church, yet Revelation 13:7 and Daniel 7:21 states the Antichrist will prevail over the saints that are on the earth at that time. If that is the church, God's Word has contradictions (which we know it doesn't).

3. This verse gives the timing of the book of Revalation:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

The things which John hast seen - the symbolical vision of the risen Christ in Revelation 1.

The things which are - the seven churches in chapters 2-3

The things which shall be hereafter - the tribulation, the millennium, eternity.

This can be seen illustrated in Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This happens before the seals are opened.

4. Daniel 9:24-27 states that Daniel's 70th week is when God will wrap up His plan for Israel. The tribulation is that 70th week, which the Antichrist will break his covenant at the midpoint. There are many passages of the OT that refer to what God will do with and to the nation of Israel during those years.

5. The church is a mystery that was not revealed in the OT; therefore it is not the NT church God is referring to in all those OT endtimes passages, but to the nation of Israel.

6. When Jesus comes for His church, He comes in the air - and it is stated to be at a time when the world is not expecting Him; however, His physical return to the earth (on the mount of Olives) is at the literal end of the seven years - therefore at a time when the world (or at least the living believers) can expect it.

7. Continuing point 6 - the church comes back with the Lord in Revelation 19, and they are having or have just had the marriage supper of the Lamb. That meant the judgement seat of Christ has already happened. It wouldn't make any sense for Jesus to rapture us up at that point, take us to heaven, then immediately gather us to take us back with Him to the earth.

8. Enoch and Elijah are clear types of the church being gathered - they were taken to heaven (actually Abraham's Bosom) without dying, and are a type of the church being taken to heaven without dying.

9. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

God promises to take the church out before the time of temptation comes upon the whole world. The Greek word for "all the world" is used 3 times in Revelation (12:9 and 16:14) and is clearly referring to things that effect the whole world - Satan's deception, gathering the lost world to battle God at Armageddon. The time of testing/temptation is the seven year tribulation, a time for the whole world to choose between God and the Devil, between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Antichrist. The true church (ie. true believers have already done that) - and many throughout history stamped their choice in their own blood, including the times of persecution in the first century until now. Just because North America and Europe is lukewarm overall doesn't negate the promises of God - or make His children any less His children just because a particular group of them did not personally face martyrdom. Though the darker this world gets and the closer we get to Jesus' return, the more the choice to receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour and to live for Him will cost those true believers. And yes, we do see that in North America when we reject the Covid vaccination scares and the trans/gay/woke agenda or go against the ecumenical (which is literally the Greek word meaning "all the world") push in modern "Christendom."

[SGO]

Thanks for taking your time.

None of your verses actually say before the Trib.

It's all assumption based on other doctrine.

Too complicated for me.

Why not go with actual statements?

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Behold I show you a mystery;

We shall not all sleep,

but we shall all be changed,

In a moment,

in the twinkling of an eye

at the last trump;

for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.

 

1Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,

with the voice of the archangel,

and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

to meet the Lord in the air:

and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

We all will be raised together at the end. "together with them."

 

Revelation 11:15

And the seventh angel sounded;

and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,

and of his Christ;

and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The seventh angel sounded but he did not sound with a trumpet?

Paul was wrong when he said "at the last trump"?

 

And this is the Father's will which has sent me,

that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing,

but should raise it up again

at the last day.

John 6:39

 

And this is the will of him that sent me,

that every one which seeth the Son,

and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:

and I will raise him up

at the last day.

John 6:40

 

No man can come to me,

except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

and I will raise him up

at the last day.

John 6:44

 

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,

hath eternal life; and I will raise him up

at the last day.

John 6:54

 

Who is speaking in those verses from John?

Did He get it wrong too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jerry]

Actually, some of my passages directly show that what they speak about is before the tribulation, such as Revelation 1:19 compared with 4:1. Hint, what happens in chapters 4-5 - after the church is removed - takes place BEFORE the opening of the seals, which is the start of the tribulation.

Isaiah 13 shows all seven years are the wrath of God - and the NT makes it clear that the church will not undergo the wrath of God.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Daniel 9:24-27 is a prophecy about Israel, not the church. There is no gap shown in Daniel because the church age and the church is a mystery not revealed in the OT - therefore verse 27 is talking about the nation of Israel and what God does with them, not with the church (who are removed before the timetable starts up again).

Daniel 9:24-27
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Also, the rapture of the church is a mystery - therefore not shown in any OT prophecies, nor are the people shown going through God’s wrath on the world the church, as they are not prophesied about.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[R Sauter]

Five seconds after our Lord's return, we will all have perfect a perfect eschatological view!

An eternity of eternities will pass and we will not have even begun to scratch the surface regarding the magnitude of God's love towards us!

Think about it.

[SGO]

Glad He saved us.

 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,

and the moon shall not give her light,

and the stars shall fall from heaven,

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,

and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,

from one end of heaven to the other,

Matthew 24: 29-31

 

After the Tribulation

He will send his angels with the sound of a trumpet.

And they shall gather together his elect.

 

The time of the gathering is plainly stated. 

No assumptions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jerry]

Yes, elect refers to the saved - but who? Matthew 24 refers to the nation of Israel. All (remaining) Israel will get saved after a certain point in the tribulation (Romans 11:25-27 and Zechariah 12-13), then will be gathered together at the end of the seven years.