Let Us Prey: A Ministry of Scandals

[Pastor Matt]

Has anyone seen any episodes yet? 

"Let Us Prey examines the pain of survivors' IFB members Ruthy Heiler, Kathy Durbin and Amanda Householder. Tell their stories of abuse at the hands of church leaders and the violence, manipulation and alleged cover-ups by other members."

 

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt29926213/

[Rebecca]

I've seen all four episodes. I'd have to watch them again if I were to give a proper review. However, I will say, I was already aware of the scandals that were covered in the series so nothing shocked me. These four episodes cover the scandals from Hyles, First Baptist, a few girls homes, and a few other churches connected to Hyles. This is why in that other thread about First Baptist/Hyles I said I didn't care about the church or college. The abuses, scandals, and coverups are absolutely disgusting and should never have taken place. 

 

[TheGloryLand]

I watched the short video above, and I do believe today. The biggest problem in many churches, that people are being brainwashed. People wanting to serve man and not God, Men of God, starting well reaching the loss for Christ, preaching the word, then slowly falling into the trap or temptation of control. This is happening and many good churches where you will see people in positions. Teaching, deacons, that are not really qualified for that position. But since they do whatever the Pastor says, they’ve fallen into a controlling environment. I am for following the Pastor, as long as what he’s doing is correct and biblical, but if he starts doing something wrong I’ll tell him. If he doesn’t like it, that’s too bad and if it continues, I’ll leave that church. I have personally noticed that the churches I have visited if there’s are people or members in the same position of serving for many years. This is not good. There are cases where there are no longer others who want to volunteer to do a certain thing, this could happen. but in my humble opinion, a church should try to rotate as often they can their leaders that are in certain positions.

[BrotherTony]

2 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

I watched the short video above, and I do believe today. The biggest problem in many churches, that people are being brainwashed. People wanting to serve man and not God, Men of God, starting well reaching the loss for Christ, preaching the word, then slowly falling into the trap or temptation of control. This is happening and many good churches where you will see people in positions. Teaching, deacons, that are not really qualified for that position. But since they do whatever the Pastor says, they’ve fallen into a controlling environment. I am for following the Pastor, as long as what he’s doing is correct and biblical, but if he starts doing something wrong I’ll tell him. If he doesn’t like it, that’s too bad and if it continues, I’ll leave that church. I have personally noticed that the churches I have visited if there’s are people or members in the same position of serving for many years. This is not good. There are cases where there are no longer others who want to volunteer to do a certain thing, this could happen. but in my humble opinion, a church should try to rotate as often they can their leaders that are in certain positions.

Again here, TGL, the theme of rotating people from their positions of service at a whim is very much a thing the RCC or like denominational setting would do, and it would lead to unqualified personnel in positions they are in no wise qualified for. If there's no good reason to rotate a person out of the position they are in, then this is a reckless approach. 

With all that being said, I have to agree that many people will blindly follow a leader, church or not, through the gates of hell if they're not first placing their eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is one thing I have seen in many IFB churches and institutions of higher learning. The SBC churches are no exception. 

[TheGloryLand]

1 minute ago, BrotherTony said:

Again here, TGL, the theme of rotating people from their positions of service at a whim is very much a thing the RCC or like denominational setting would do, and it would lead to unqualified personnel in positions they are in no wise qualified for. If there's no good reason to rotate a person out of the position they are in, then this is a reckless approach. 

With all that being said, I have to agree that many people will blindly follow a leader, church or not, through the gates of hell if they're not first placing their eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is one thing I have seen in many IFB churches and institutions of higher learning. The SBC churches are no exception. 

No problem, I believe that rotation will keep certain things from happening and you believe that it is not necessary to rotate. 

[BrotherTony]

3 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

No problem, I believe that rotation will keep certain things from happening and you believe that it is not necessary to rotate. 

I believe in going with people's strengths as shown through the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives, not an arbitrary rotation at will.

[HappyChristian]

Not to pile on TLG, but I have to agree that rotation isn't the answer. God places members of His body into the local church in which He wants them. As members, there are skill sets, gifts, and talents that God has given/allowed each member to have - for the good of that local church. If God has given someone the ability to work with children, it is not a wise move to replace them with someone just because they've been at it for "too long." 

See, rotation does not deal with the heart issues that bring about this kind of travesty that the OP is talking about. It simply moves folks about - and it can lead to confusion. Anecdotal here, but there are folks in our church who would never make it working with children because that is not where their skills/gifts/talents lie. But same said folks make great ushers, greeters, adult teachers, etc.

I do agree that far too many churches - of all belief systems, not just IFB (which seems to be a favorite whipping boy to far too many folks, especially on this subject), which is the loosely-aligned group mentioned in this series., have this kind of absolute filth going on. As Tony mentioned, the SBC is no slacker in this area, nor is the RCC, the Presbyterian church, etc. Many folks who decry the independent aspect of the IFB and claim that is the cause of all the scandal forget that the RCC and the Presby churches have hierarchies - which actually do rotate their leaders in and out of churches...the RCC, at least, rotates priests when they've been caught doing egregious things.  

 A pulpit that is manned by a humble, godly man who preaches God's Word...not his opinions...and who teaches holiness (and practices it) will be used by the Holy Spirit to keep this kind of thing from happening in the church they are placed in to under-shepherd. That does not mean there won't be some pervert that happens along and tries stuff, but the Holy Spirit will warn a man who is walking with Him.  There are times He uses other folks to do the warning...a humble man will listen.

There are a few good books out that deal with keeping abuse from happening in the church. They deal more with child abuse, whether sexual or physical, but they are thoughtful books to have in one's library. We are a very small church, but I've already gotten ideas on how to place our children's area, should the Lord ever allow us to grow. Again, that will not avoid everything, but when we remember that we are dealing with lost people, and even saved people who are still in our sin-cursed bodies, we need to realize that anything is possible and work toward not allowing it to happen.

My heart breaks for the folks who've gone through the things many of these have gone through. Man-worship has created an environment of predators who are not called out because, you know, it'll hurt the church. sigh...

I have been working with a woman from a distance who was married to such a one. A child molester. A whoremonger. A vile, unrepentant individual who was able to FOOL two different pastors. Both good men, but they are prone to take things at face value, with wives who are not as cynical as I am (sadly, it's true - I am cynical...but it has been used by God to arouse my discomfort and suspicion so that I tell my hubs...and it's usually right. Handled quickly it helps avoid travesty and tragedy).  So, anyway...they move to "help" a church, but in reality he was running from folks for things I'm not going to mention. He was teaching  kids in this new church...a predator. One who molests children (he even molested his own). The pastor found out BY CONFESSION of the man. AND HE DID NOT REPORT IT because he feared what the law would do to his family and the church family. THIS is one reason predators are safe...men who don't understand the nature of pedophilia and sexual deviancy, who don't follow the mandatory reporting LAWS.  So he's still out there, no longer (thankfully) with his family hurting them, but seeking other victims because a pastor neglected to have him arrested. I shudder to think what might have happened to those children in his class had his wife not called me and followed my advice (coming from the Bible and my hubs). She has a rough row to hoe right now, but her kids are safe, she is safe, and God can work to heal them now.

Interestingly enough, this  lady in the video has called out someone whom I personally know who had made it her mission to "rescue" women from the "cult" she grew up in. Now, there were definitely issues, but my point is: she presented a false front and was caught out. Not all "whistleblowers" who cite facts of abuse are in it to help the victims, but rather have an agenda of their own. I respect this lady because she didn't overlook the nonsense of the "rescuer" simply because she was supposedly helping victims.

To answer the OP, I have not seen any episodes yet, but I fully intend to.

[Rebecca]

6 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

I watched the short video above, and I do believe today. The biggest problem in many churches, that people are being brainwashed. People wanting to serve man and not God, Men of God, starting well reaching the loss for Christ, preaching the word, then slowly falling into the trap or temptation of control. This is happening and many good churches where you will see people in positions. Teaching, deacons, that are not really qualified for that position. But since they do whatever the Pastor says, they’ve fallen into a controlling environment. I am for following the Pastor, as long as what he’s doing is correct and biblical, but if he starts doing something wrong I’ll tell him. If he doesn’t like it, that’s too bad and if it continues, I’ll leave that church. I have personally noticed that the churches I have visited if there’s are people or members in the same position of serving for many years. This is not good. There are cases where there are no longer others who want to volunteer to do a certain thing, this could happen. but in my humble opinion, a church should try to rotate as often they can their leaders that are in certain positions.

I agree with the dangers of putting men on pedestals, leading to basically worshipping the pastor and not God. I'm not against having good role models, and a pastor should be one. However, if we are not careful, it can slowly lead to an unhealthy and ungodly obsession, which is what happened with Hyles. Also, the idea of rotating people out of/into their positions may sound good in theory, but that is what caused some of the abuses covered in the series. It's not how long a person has been in their leadership position, it's the state of their heart.  What churches should be doing is very carefully vetting anyone who will be in a leadership position, including a background check, as well as having procedures in place to keep abuses from happening. And if God forbid, something wicked does happen, they should call the proper authorities and have the perpetrator arrested and/or kicked out of the church publicly. What a church should never do is cover up the sin and push the victim under the bus.  

Luke 12:2-3 

2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

 

 

[Joe Chandler]

2 Samuel 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

I have witnessed first hand sexual abuse in a church. I have seen pastors and missionaries go astray badly. But as HappyChristian pointed out, this is across denominational lines. Many things are covered up so as not to damage the cause of Christ, but that is a big mistake. The way to deal with any offense is through church discipline, which has the ultimate goal of restoration of the transgressor. That is my belief. 

[R Sauter]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:56 AM, Joe Chandler said:

2 Samuel 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

I have witnessed first hand sexual abuse in a church. I have seen pastors and missionaries go astray badly. But as HappyChristian pointed out, this is across denominational lines. Many things are covered up so as not to damage the cause of Christ, but that is a big mistake. The way to deal with any offense is through church discipline, which has the ultimate goal of restoration of the transgressor. That is my belief. 

Church discipline is applicable to moral and spiritual matters which affect the character and reputation of the congregation (public sin, etc.) and in the context of 1 Cor 6:1-8, certain "Civil Matters" (disputes, Etc.) may be addressed and dealt with among the Church membership.

Problems begin when one tries to apply 1 Cor 6:1-8 in regards to criminal matters (crimes against the state). The Senior Pastor in an IFB Church I was a member of had been messing around with some of the young girls at our Church. Thankfully, the authorities were notified even before the matter came to the Church. There was a sizable faction who strongly objected and insisted the matter should've been settled in house. This pastor was a HAC grad and I later learned this was pretty much the mindset among the Hyles-Anderson crowd back in the day and many other HAC affiliated churches in the area (and the nation) were rather contemptuous towards us because we had turned him in and pressed criminal charges!

While church discipline is certainly applicable, any criminal matter must involve the applicable legal authorities and failure to do so makes the officers of that church criminally liable! Church discipline in such a scenario would therefore require the offender to turn themselves in and face the music for their crimes. You can be their friend and go with them through this ordeal but justice must be served. They can find grace and forgiveness as they are serving their time in jail!

[HappyChristian]

I believe that, if the offense is a crime, church discipline would include calling in the authorities. I know 1 Cor 6 doesn't seem to teach that, but I honestly don't think the verses are teaching that there is never a time to turn someone over to the authorities. God created civil government, and I don't believe He is pleased when we keep things like sexual abuse "in house." 

I wonder, though, if church discipline were done correctly and in a timely manner, would there be less instances of perversion?

[Joe Chandler]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:26 PM, R Sauter said:

Church discipline is applicable to moral and spiritual matters which affect the character and reputation of the congregation (public sin, etc.) and in the context of 1 Cor 6:1-8, certain "Civil Matters" (disputes, Etc.) may be addressed and dealt with among the Church membership.

Problems begin when one tries to apply 1 Cor 6:1-8 in regards to criminal matters (crimes against the state). The Senior Pastor in an IFB Church I was a member of had been messing around with some of the young girls at our Church. Thankfully, the authorities were notified even before the matter came to the Church. There was a sizable faction who strongly objected and insisted the matter should've been settled in house. This pastor was a HAC grad and I later learned this was pretty much the mindset among the Hyles-Anderson crowd back in the day and many other HAC affiliated churches in the area (and the nation) were rather contemptuous towards us because we had turned him in and pressed criminal charges!

While church discipline is certainly applicable, any criminal matter must involve the applicable legal authorities and failure to do so makes the officers of that church criminally liable! Church discipline in such a scenario would therefore require the offender to turn themselves in and face the music for their crimes. You can be their friend and go with them through this ordeal but justice must be served. They can find grace and forgiveness as they are serving their time in jail!

I was not advocating for an in house only approach. My point was that covering up sin is the wrong approach. 

[R Sauter]

1 hour ago, Joe Chandler said:

I was not advocating for an in house only approach. My point was that covering up sin is the wrong approach. 

I understand. Your comment reminded me of something I thought should be brought up. I have personal experience I had in the matter. I know that the crowd in Hammond, IN has changed their tune since the 1980s which was demonstrated with how they handled the Schaap ordeal.

I was also going to respond to Happy Christian's comments. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually seen "Church Discipline" practiced in an IFB Church (or SBC for that matter). I would say that prevention begins with accountability in a congregation from the top down and from the bottom up and hopefully most matters are resolved at the first rung of Mt 18:15-17.

The sad fact of the matter is that a Pastor often feels isolated with no one to talk to and no place to go! They feel pressured believing their congregation must never see cracks in their armor, that they have no personal struggles of their own. They provide pastoral counseling but where can they turn when they are have marital problems, are struggling with depression, secret sin, or whatever? If things get really bad in his marriage or family, he may need to step down for a season and take care of these matters but what if the ministry is all he knows and is the only means by which he can financially support them? I believe right here is where a pastor is most vulnerable to moral failure or worse!

Our church addresses this with an "Elder Led" structure where our "Senior Pastor" is the leader but is also a member of the elder board where he is equal with and accountable to other elders. This elder board shares in the oversight of the congregation which includes the pastor and family. The elders are accountable to the congregation and vice versa. In such a scenario, our pastor has a support network and is therefore able to call the church he pastors his church family!

[HappyChristian]

I totally agree that accountability is vital. And is definitely lacking in many churches - and I agree that it is necessary in order for prevention of abusive situations. 

 

[TheGloryLand]

Should a Pastor step down when he is having family problems? It all depends on what the problem is. if it is because his wife doesn’t want to come to church every Sunday or his kids are smoking and hanging around the wrong people. No, he should not step down. would you step down from your job? If you have any of these issues, I don’t think so. Yes, if he is having sexual scandals, or problems with Internet sex. step down and seek help. Now, if you had any of these issues, I just mentioned, would you step down most likely you will not. spiritual leaders or non-spiritual, there is a double standard here. Sin is sin, but pastors are measured with a shorter ruler. I believe a pastor should gather with the deacons or leaders of the church discuss their situation and do what the leaders or deacons recommend. If they ask him please stay, then stay, if they ask him please step down seek help then do that, keeping his salary is a must in serving or seeking help. Just like when we have a problem at work we take family leave, or vacation leave and and still get paid. For how long get paid, the church leaders will decide. Now talking about abuse in the church, this should not be accepted and termination is a must especially when there are children involved. if the pastor is cheating on his wife, he should be terminated immediately. If the wife is cheating on the Pastor, the pastor being single now can stay. Even if he’s not divorced, yet, he can slowly work on that and stay preaching, for the woman was the weaker vessel. We humans love to judge others. This also can be sin, especially if we are not part of that congregation. Am I judging right now, not really, I’m talking in general and not about anyone person. if you notice, I normally don’t respond with long paragraphs, this must be important.