Liberals' Bane

[Pastor Matt]

10 hours ago, bluewater said:

I'm just saying Christians shouldn't bring civil secular symbols into the sanctuary of a church. People will begin associating them with Christianity.

 

The problem I have with that is the cross is a pagan symbol (secular symbol). 

Outside of that... To name a few...Pianos and projector/ televisions are secular as well.

Again, this is a great topic. I appreciate you bringing it up for discussion. 

[Napsterdad]

11 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

Let me ask you a question first: Knowing that the name Sunday is derived from what actually means "Sun's Day" - named after the sun god...would you quit calling it Sunday? Or maybe quit going to church on Sunday, because that recognizes the sun god? Or would you realize that liberty - even if there is a "goddess" named Libertas - assures that we can call it Sunday without it being a form of worship of Ra or any other sun god in paganism...

While in Saudi Arabia for an extended period for work the local church met in alternating homes of members on varying weeks to reduce the possibility of patterns in the gatherings. These meetings took place on Fridays as that is Islam's day of worship (Sunday is a workday there). Following your lead, I would have to assume we were worshipping the goddess, Frigga, wife of Odin, goddess of married love. Who knew? All this time I thought we were worshipping Christ. 

[bluewater]

10 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

But that doesn't answer my question.   And, FWIW, I tip my hat to you for your stand. I don't agree with you, obviously, but will not castigate you for your belief. 

 

I am uncomfortable that our days and months are named after gods.

However, Churches are not bringing poster boards of "month" and "day" names into the sanctuary to be seen during worship services, as if they had anything to do with Christianity.

I would not oppose renaming our days and months.

[bluewater]

3 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

Are you implying that in each of these places the room should be thoroughly scrubbed to remove any instance of secular or religious symbolism not relevant to biblical Christianity?

Sure, or [edited] gather elsewhere! And I would not assemble together with Muslims or Wiccans for the purpose of worship, as you yourself explained - 'a “church” is a calling out'. God has called us out of the world into a holy assembly of His believers.

Edited January 4, 2023 by bluewater
ommitted a necessary word

[bluewater]

2 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

Nowhere in the bible is church defined as a specific place.

And yet, I was referring to a sanctuary - a specific place where Christians define as a place to gather for worship. If we ourselves designate a place to worship, we should not bring secular symbols or images of goddesses into that place.

[bluewater]

14 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

I think we need to understand that we do not set out to assimilate ungodliness.

Perhaps some do not 'set out'; but if ungodliness is assimilated someone did 'set out.' And when we discover that ungodliness is assimilated, we are responsible to unassimilate it.

[Napsterdad]

1 hour ago, bluewater said:

Sure, or [edited] gather elsewhere! And I would not assemble together with Muslims or Wiccans for the purpose of worship, as you yourself explained - 'a “church” is a calling out'. God has called us out of the world into a holy assembly of His believers.

I in no way implied that these different religions worship together, but as real estate is very dear, especially in many deployed military environments, places to worship are not choices, but directives. Because of this multiple religions must use the same venue to worship at different times not together. Countries where Christianity is severely controlled or forbidden are even further restrictive. Perhaps you should go to these places and discuss with those in power how they must allow for the cleansing of Christian places of worship. 

As I read your posts on this issue I cannot help but think of Luke 11:37-54. For instance:

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

What is on the outside is of little importance, it is what is in the heart that matters. If those you worship with are so easily distracted by the decor of a sanctuary, I suggest you work on their heart condition. Don't start pointing at others who don't let the external trappings of a facility distract from their internal worship; again, similar to the Pharisees.

Luke 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: 54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

4 hours ago, PastorMatt said:

The problem I have with that is the cross is a pagan symbol (secular symbol). 

Outside of that... To name a few...Pianos and projector/ televisions are secular as well.

Again, this is a great topic. I appreciate you bringing it up for discussion. 

Pastor Matt made an interesting point. Should all Christian sanctuaries remove the cross as well?

Again, if the trappings of a place of meeting are such a significant issue the problem is not with the inanimate objects, but with the heart of the "Christian".

[bluewater]

2 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

it is what is in the heart that matters.

To put things into perspective I began by stating, "I'm curious if anyone equates patriotic conservatism with Christianity."

 

2 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

Pastor Matt made an interesting point. Should all Christian sanctuaries remove the cross as well?

I'm also interested in hearing his answer.

 

2 hours ago, Napsterdad said:

As I read your posts on this issue I cannot help but think of Luke 11:37-54. For instance:

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

Clean cups and platters were not an outward indication of their hearts.

I see flags and statues of liberty in the sanctuary as an outward indication of people confusing or conflating or intertwining patriotism with Christianity.

[HappyChristian]

4 hours ago, bluewater said:

Perhaps some do not 'set out'; but if ungodliness is assimilated someone did 'set out.' And when we discover that ungodliness is assimilated, we are responsible to unassimilate it.

Ungodliness is defined by the Bible. The Bible does not forbid doors, walls, windows, carpet/flooring, etc., etc. All of which would, as BroMatt pointed out, fall under "secular." That might seem to be stretching it or even to be silly, but ALL of the physical components which together form the sanctuary are secular, because they come from this earth. Dedicated to the Lord, obviously, but their beginnings were secular.

The fact of the matter is that God gave us this nation. It was founded on biblical principle. If a church chooses to honor the country in which it serves by placing a flag at the front, there is no biblical prohibition (as long as it is not worshipped, obviously). If, however, the pastor and/or the church feel that it is tacky, inappropriate, etc., they are free and clear to not have one. I felt that the huge flags we had were tacky...meeting in a manufactured home, we have a very small area. Large, platform flags were too much. Hence our smaller flags.

There are people who have renamed days/months. Their children grew up under that...and they most certainly had problems as adults with many areas besides just calendars. We are to be a peculiar people, but far too many people don't understand that word does not mean weird. The calendars and day names are set...we do not worship those gods after whom days/months are named and we all know that. The same applies to decorations in the auditorium.

The emphasis that folks see when they enter our auditorium is not our flags. Nope. It is the cross, on the top of which is a crown of thorns, with the sign "Up from the grave He arose" and at whose base is an open Bible. Folks know, when they enter our church, that we are a church not a secular organization. And the singing, preaching, and teaching that goes on simply underlines that while it magnifies Christ. Even with those pesky little flags sitting up there. 

 

Shotgun comments (meaning the comments go all over the place lol):

And, no, we do not equate Christianity with patriotic conservatism...we do, however, believe that Christians ought to be the best citizens of which ever country in which they abide. But I have seen churches with calendars at the front. The Bible does say, "Teach us to number our days..." Using a calendar to remind folks that days follow days and time marches on is not always a bad idea...I would venture to say that wherever a group of Christians meet to worship is at that time a sanctuary, even if it is outdoors.

[1Timothy115]

The spirit of worship, the manifest presence of Jesus Christ, and the transformation of the ordinary into awe, wonder, and respect of Almighty God.

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

It is not the images around us, stop thinking of self; it is the image we bear, start thinking of Christ.

Matthew 28:20b "and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

[Pastor Matt]

• I mentioned the cross as secular because it was designed specifically for public humiliation and execution.
• I mentioned pianos being specular because were once associated with the bar and alcohol scene.
• I mentioned TV/projectors being secular because TV's are associated with ungodly films and anti-god propaganda.

All of those things I mentioned CAN be an idol if improperly used and worshiped. If any of those three are improperly used in my church I'd throw them out in a heartbeat. 

Like I said, In the Bible idolatry goes beyond the worship of material things like statues. That's why I asked you @bluewater what definition of idolatry you are using? 

2 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

And, no, we do not equate Christianity with patriotic conservatism...we do, however, believe that Christians ought to be the best citizens of which ever country in which they abide. But I have seen churches with calendars at the front. The Bible does say, "Teach us to number our days..." Using a calendar to remind folks that days follow days and time marches on is not always a bad idea...I would venture to say that wherever a group of Christians meet to worship is at that time a sanctuary, even if it is outdoors.

I believe the problem here is that there are a few that do. They base members spirituality based on their patriotic passion. They are far and few between, but unfortunately we get lumped in them if we do anything patriotic. 

@Salyan Do Canadian churches do anything special on Canada Day?

[HappyChristian]

21 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

I believe the problem here is that there are a few that do. They base members spirituality based on their patriotic passion. They are far and few between, but unfortunately we get lumped in them if we do anything patriotic. 

 

Absolutely agree!

I'd rather be in a church that has nothing to do with anything patriotic rather than one that makes a member feel less than if they are not fervent enough (by some man's standard).

[Salyan]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:15 PM, PastorMatt said:

@Salyan Do Canadian churches do anything special on Canada Day?

It’s not uncommon. My church will sing O Canada on the service close to Canada Day, and if it’s not on Sunday, will often do a church picnic or ball game. 
 

That being said, the evangelical churches I grew up in were somewhat less likely to do special stuff for Canada Day. Not sure if that’s because their people were more likely to join community events, or because the IFB churches have had a lot of American missionaries planting them.

[Disciple.Luke]

I am surprised that the issue of flags in the sanctuary has not been debated more among American Christians.

Considering the history of America was founded with a war against England it seems like most churches would've been reluctant or hesitant about draping flags of the United States in sanctuaries filled with people who wanted a distinct separation of "church" and "state". 

Even if there was opposition about the flag issue at the founding of the Nation I can see how it could've become a normal thing a few generations later. I'm certain American protestant churches would've wanted a way to identify themselves considering how Catholic immigrants were looked at with suspicion wondering if their loyalty was to Christ and the local congregation or Rome and it's Pope.

I assume the practice gained even more popularity leading up to the Civil War as a way to acknowledge if they supported the North or Confederate South.

I personally would prefer that flags not be displayed inside our church buildings. At the same time I don't see anything ungodly about churches preferring to have them. I believe that it's biblical for Christians to identify with their location - like Antioch, Thessalonica, Corinth, Rome, etc...and a flag would just be a visible display signifying that particular area.  

Pastor Matt's point of the cross being of pagan origin is a great example of how God was able to redeem a symbol of torture and death and turn it into a symbol of hope and salvation with the resurrection of our Lord. While the "world" may narrow in on the origins or pain that something once symbolized we as believers are able to discern God's redemptive plan and understand how something or someone can be sinful and evil all of their lives but can be born again, redeemed, and become something "new" that is able to live in a way that reflects God love and mercy. 

Sure the cross has been used as a pagan symbol but so has the earth, the moon, the sun, the stars, etc...humans have tried to take almost everything in creation as an idol in one form or another. 

Thankfully as believers we don't have to look at creation and use things as symbols to try to come up with a reason of why the heavens and earth exist. We don't have to guess if the Sun is God or if lighting and thunder is caused by the strike of a hammer belonging to Thor.

 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"

[Salyan]

I don’t think the American founders wanted a ‘distinct separation between church and state’ so much as they wanted the state to stay out of their religious choices and to not have to pay tithes to a state church. And even that had to be fought for by the Baptists; other church groups in early America were fine with a state church (as long as it was theirs).