Should the brethren have a problem with Christian?

[1Timothy115]

NT usage according to http://kjvbible.net/:
Christian 3 times.
Believers 6 times.
Saints 62 times.
Brother 109 and Sister 25 times apiece.
Brethren 229 times.

[BrotherTony]

Aren't they all  Christians, or referring to Christians. I wouldn't think that anyone should have a problem with the terminology "Christian."

[MikeWatson1]

Christian just means 'follower of Jesus Christ'

I know someone in the town square here in Christchurch (Cathedral Square) back in the mid 2000s.. would set up a sign saying he was not a christian, but a follower of Yeshua.  

Doing the thing of making christian to be not the word for a believer.. going back to original terms.. 

But in this kind of legalism, they would probably call people who designate themselves as christian, as not even saved!

Also, they would probably attach a bunch of other doctrine to being a follower of Yeshua and not 'christian' that is not biblical.

But anyway.. as most of us would know.. followers of Jesus were given the nickname 'christians' in Acts:

 

Act_11:26  And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

I am a follower of Christ.. therefore 'Christian' is all good!

 

 

 

[1Timothy115]

The OP was a question to stir up some thinking for discussion. 

I am a disciple of Christ, if a Christian is a believer in Christ (some are in name only) they are my brother or sister in the Lord, saints by grace, and my brethren.

All are good Biblical names for those who are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, trusting in Him by faith. Additionally, they would be followers of God...

Matthew 12:49   And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Acts 5:14   And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
Ephesians 5:1   Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

[MikeWatson1]

I think you can get some Messianic Jews who take issue with being called 'christian'

I've seen it in other forums where anyone can post in them.  It seems they will call Jesus (or Yeshua) the Messiah.. but then not quite give Him fully God status.  Doing what some others do in attributing fully God status only to the Father.  Jesus becomes a great prophet or 'demi-god'.  Denial of the trinity.

They will embrace Jesus-- but still have the OT way of service.  Accept the 4 gospels but reject Pauline letters plus other NT  books.

Then you get Jews who are completely bible believing and their Jewishness is in observing the feasts in remembrance, but they completely accept the whole NT and Jesus as fully God.

 

 

 

[1Timothy115]

On 11/28/2022 at 2:23 PM, MikeWatson1 said:

I think you can get some Messianic Jews who take issue with being called 'christian'

I've seen it in other forums where anyone can post in them.  It seems they will call Jesus (or Yeshua) the Messiah.. but then not quite give Him fully God status.  Doing what some others do in attributing fully God status only to the Father.  Jesus becomes a great prophet or 'demi-god'.  Denial of the trinity.

They will embrace Jesus-- but still have the OT way of service.  Accept the 4 gospels but reject Pauline letters plus other NT  books.

Then you get Jews who are completely bible believing and their Jewishness is in observing the feasts in remembrance, but they completely accept the whole NT and Jesus as fully God.

 

 

 

Why were the Messianic Jews brought into this? Just as a side note?

[MikeWatson1]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:08 PM, 1Timothy115 said:

Why were the Messianic Jews brought into this? Just as a side note?

Oh, I was just thinking about people who will say the believe in Jesus, but actually make him lesser than the Father.  

Alot of messianic Jews seem to do this in my experience as an example.

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

I saw a fair number of Messianic Jews years ago,  and none of them as I recall indicated Jesus any lesser than the Father ever,  in practice nor in teaching. 

As far as the name, title , or label "Christian",  most people who identify themselves as "Christian" for about , what, 1700 years now,   are not at all followers of Jesus.   The name , title, or label "Christian" has been co-opted /is that the right word/  for billions of people who never once thought they should even try to follow Jesus,  but who 'joined' some or another group to get the benefits there-of for being 'Christian' as they were told by the groups who actually ignore Jesus but claim all the benefits as if they belonged to Him.

[1Timothy115]

On 12/26/2022 at 9:19 PM, Martyr_4_FutureJoy said:

I saw a fair number of Messianic Jews years ago,  and none of them as I recall indicated Jesus any lesser than the Father ever,  in practice nor in teaching. 

As far as the name, title , or label "Christian",  most people who identify themselves as "Christian" for about , what, 1700 years now,   are not at all followers of Jesus.   The name , title, or label "Christian" has been co-opted /is that the right word/  for billions of people who never once thought they should even try to follow Jesus,  but who 'joined' some or another group to get the benefits there-of for being 'Christian' as they were told by the groups who actually ignore Jesus but claim all the benefits as if they belonged to Him.

Interesting thoughts presented; I might like to examine the source for the statements. Where did you find your information?

[Disciple.Luke]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:34 PM, 1Timothy115 said:

NT usage according to http://kjvbible.net/:
Christian 3 times.
Believers 6 times.
Saints 62 times.
Brother 109 and Sister 25 times apiece.
Brethren 229 times.

I thought about this topic for some time after reading your post.

While I don't see any issue with being described as a Christian I notice that I will often avoid it and using terms like believer instead.

The reason I started being cautious about using the word Christian is because certain churches or denominations have their own definitions of who is really a Christian.

As an example, if you go to a church of Christ you will notice that when they refer to "Christians" they talking specifically about others who believe as they do.

When I use the word "Christians" I am typically referring to of all the redeemed not any specific group. 

I ran into the same hair splitting definitions even in IFB churches. One deacon in particular would correct me if I referred to someone who had non baptist beliefs. I can remember a conversation with him where I made the comment that I liked the word "disciple" and he immediately associated it with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) denomination even though my opinion had absolutely nothing to do with them.

I do think it's important to choose any kind of label we use based on who we are speaking to. The word Christian is used by so many people that it can be difficult for them ro know exactly who we are referring to.

I remember when Trump was elected president he posed for a picture with Paula White and several other TBN frauds and it felt uncomfortable to me that these misfits had become the face of "Christianity" advising the President and possibly seen as what the Christian Right Republicans believed in.

By far my favorite description is in Acts 9 when Luke refers to the believers as followers of "The Way".

[Joe Chandler]

Fleeing from false doctrine, as we should, leads us to do illogical things. Christian is a perfectly good term for what I am. I don't care if others use it incorrectly. I am not afraid of God's sovereign will, because the Bible supports it. I also don't shy from man's free will, because the Bible supports that. Be prepared to refute the incorrect use of words and concepts in the Bible, don't run from the truth. That is my position. I am a Christian.

[Guest]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:18 AM, BrotherTony said:

Aren't they all  Christians, or referring to Christians. I wouldn't think that anyone should have a problem with the terminology "Christian."

Saints also refers to angels.

[BrotherTony]

17 minutes ago, Muckah said:

Saints also refers to angels.

Do you have Scripture that says this? Thanks.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Do you have Scripture that says this? Thanks.

In some passages, there's more to the issue of identifying the saints than what meets the eye and some disagreement over who the "saints" are.

"Who does Jesus comes back with at his second coming.

Pre-trib says that SAINTS include raptured and resurrected people who were taken up before the tribulation. Some post-tribulation believers believe the resurrection happens while Jesus is coming in the clouds after the tribulation, and the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. Both of these theories are false. This bible study shows that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are only holy angels.

ZECHARIAH
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle....and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints1 with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints.

The noun translated saints (Gr. ἄγιος, Gtr. hagios) in these scriptures means "the holy ones" or "the sanctified ones" and is often translated "saint" or "saints". It is an adjective being used without a noun and is translated "saints" referring to people (Matthew 27:52; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 15:25-26; Ephesians 3:8; 4:12; Philippians 1:1; 4:21), or "saints" referring to angels (1 Thessalonians 3:13; Jude 1:14), or "the holy one", referring to Jesus (Mark 1:24; Acts 3:14). When used as an adjective with a noun it is always translated "holy". It is so used of men (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; 2 Peter 3:2), of angels at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26), of Jesus (Acts 4:27; 4:30), and of the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8; 13:11; Luke 4:1; Acts 2:4). The word translated saints1 (Hb. קְדֹשִׁים Htr. qedōshim) (Zechariah 14:5) is the plural of the Hebrew word קָדוֹשׁ (Htr. qādôsh Strongs 6918), which occurs 116 times in the Old Testament. It is an adjective which means "holy", and is translated "holy" (65x), "holy one" (39x), and "saint" (12x) in the KJV. It is used in a similar manner to "hagios", with or without another noun with it, and essentially also means "the holy (...)"; again, the missing word depends upon the context. Thus we need to find the missing noun, and the only way to do this is to search the other scriptures concerning Jesus' second coming, and establish which word is used in this same context, in other places. When we do this, we find the following scriptures:

(Matthew 25:31) "the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"
(Mark 8:38) "the son of man ... comes in the glory of his Father, with the holy angels."

In both of these cases the word translated holy is a plural of "hagios", which shows that "angels" is the missing word in this case. Nowhere does the scripture ever say that Jesus comes back with men, but rather everywhere it is stated to be angels:

(Matthew 13:39) "the reapers are the angels."
(Matthew 13:41) "in the end of this world ... The son of man shall send forth his angels,"
(Matthew 13:49) "at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,"
(Matthew 24:31) "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,"
(Mark 13:27) "And then shall he send his angels,"
(Luke 9:26) "the son of man ... he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,"
(2 Thessalonians 1:7) "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,".

The fact that "saints" refers to angels, and not people in these verses, is made clear by the fact that Jesus comes back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5; 1 Thessalonians 3:13), and this could not possibly refer to resurrected people.
 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Muckah

[BrotherTony]

24 minutes ago, Muckah said:

In some passages, there's more to the issue of identifying the saints than what meets the eye and some disagreement over who the "saints" are.

"Who does Jesus comes back with at his second coming.

Pre-trib says that SAINTS include raptured and resurrected people who were taken up before the tribulation. Some post-tribulation believers believe the resurrection happens while Jesus is coming in the clouds after the tribulation, and the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. Both of these theories are false. This bible study shows that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are only holy angels.

ZECHARIAH
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle....and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints1 with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints.

The noun translated saints (Gr. ἄγιος, Gtr. hagios) in these scriptures means "the holy ones" or "the sanctified ones" and is often translated "saint" or "saints". It is an adjective being used without a noun and is translated "saints" referring to people (Matthew 27:52; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; 15:25-26; Ephesians 3:8; 4:12; Philippians 1:1; 4:21), or "saints" referring to angels (1 Thessalonians 3:13; Jude 1:14), or "the holy one", referring to Jesus (Mark 1:24; Acts 3:14). When used as an adjective with a noun it is always translated "holy". It is so used of men (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; 2 Peter 3:2), of angels at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26), of Jesus (Acts 4:27; 4:30), and of the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8; 13:11; Luke 4:1; Acts 2:4). The word translated saints1 (Hb. קְדֹשִׁים Htr. qedōshim) (Zechariah 14:5) is the plural of the Hebrew word קָדוֹשׁ (Htr. qādôsh Strongs 6918), which occurs 116 times in the Old Testament. It is an adjective which means "holy", and is translated "holy" (65x), "holy one" (39x), and "saint" (12x) in the KJV. It is used in a similar manner to "hagios", with or without another noun with it, and essentially also means "the holy (...)"; again, the missing word depends upon the context. Thus we need to find the missing noun, and the only way to do this is to search the other scriptures concerning Jesus' second coming, and establish which word is used in this same context, in other places. When we do this, we find the following scriptures:

(Matthew 25:31) "the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"
(Mark 8:38) "the son of man ... comes in the glory of his Father, with the holy angels."

In both of these cases the word translated holy is a plural of "hagios", which shows that "angels" is the missing word in this case. Nowhere does the scripture ever say that Jesus comes back with men, but rather everywhere it is stated to be angels:

(Matthew 13:39) "the reapers are the angels."
(Matthew 13:41) "in the end of this world ... The son of man shall send forth his angels,"
(Matthew 13:49) "at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,"
(Matthew 24:31) "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,"
(Mark 13:27) "And then shall he send his angels,"
(Luke 9:26) "the son of man ... he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,"
(2 Thessalonians 1:7) "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,".

The fact that "saints" refers to angels, and not people in these verses, is made clear by the fact that Jesus comes back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5; 1 Thessalonians 3:13), and this could not possibly refer to resurrected people, for the following reasons:
 

This is an AI response, or at the very least a Roman Catholic view of Scriptures. The RCC bestow the moniker of "Saint" on the 3 angels named in the Bible.