Salvation is of The Lord. Redemption ,Accomplished and Applied

[Iconoclast]

Jonah had it correct when he confessed Salvation is of the Lord.

In Hebrews 9 we read this;

¹² Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Jesus on the cross said it is finished. he accomplished a perfect work of redemption saving His sheep.

It was actual ,not potential.

The scope of this redemption goes worldwide. So we have verses that speak of this.

Many get excited saying world, or all men, and pull verses out that use those words.

Understanding what is being said is another story.

Are all men ever born...SAVED? NO

Is everyone in the world ...Saved? NO

Did God ever intend to save every person? No

Several have offered such verses already, we will examine them in this thread.

We will also examine verses that are not quite as popular as well and see why what looked plain and simple is a bit more involved.

 

Gen.3

¹³ And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

¹⁴ And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

¹⁵ And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Are the two "seeds" equal? Is there a Godly line, and an ungodly line?

[Iconoclast]

Questions;

Do you believe the atonement is Actual or only potential? 

Do you believe it was perfect and complete?

Do you believe propitiation was actual or only potential?

Do you believe reconciliation was actual or potential?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

¹⁵ And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Are the two "seeds" equal? Is there a Godly line, and an ungodly line?

The question above is a faulty question.  In Genesis 3:15 the seed of the woman is further described with the singular pronouns "it" and "his."  Thus the seed of the woman as presented in this context is NOT a "godly line," but is a singular male individual; and we know that the singular male individual who bruised Satan's head and whose heel Satan bruised is none other than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself.

It should be noted that with your question above you employ the plural word "seeds;" whereas the Holy Spirit inspired grammar of Genesis 3:15 only employs the singular word "seed."

[Pastor Scott Markle]

37 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Questions;

Do you believe the atonement is Actual or only potential? 

Do you believe it was perfect and complete?

Do you believe propitiation was actual or only potential?

Do you believe reconciliation was actual or potential?

The terms "actual" and "potential" as employed in the above questions are philosophical terminology.  I would much rather employ Biblical terminology than philosophical terminology.  So then:

1.  Do I believe that God our Savior "will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"?  In accord with 1 Timothy 2:3-4 -- "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." -- I boldly answer, "Yes."

2.  Do I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ "gave himself a ransom for all [mankind]"?  In accord with 1 Timothy 2:5-6 -- "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time." -- I boldly answer, "Yes."

3.  Do I believe that "the grace of God" which "bringeth salvation" has indeed "appeared to all men"?  In accord with Titus 2:11 -- "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN." -- I boldly answer, "Yes."

4.  Do I believe that Jesus Christ "is the propitiation," not only for the sins of believers, "but also for the sins of the whole world"?  In accord with 1 John 2:2 -- "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD." -- I boldly answer, "Yes."

[BrotherTony]

This is why I dont try to argue with Calvinists. They have "redefined" what the Bible says to fit their own devices. Their reasoning is circular, and in my opinion, of the devil.

[Iconoclast]

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

This is why I dont try to argue with Calvinists. They have "redefined" what the Bible says to fit their own devices. Their reasoning is circular, and in my opinion, of the devil.

What do you mean...redefined? 

[Iconoclast]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The question above is a faulty question.  In Genesis 3:15 the seed of the woman is further described with the singular pronouns "it" and "his."  Thus the seed of the woman as presented in this context is NOT a "godly line," but is a singular male individual; and we know that the singular male individual who bruised Satan's head and whose heel Satan bruised is none other than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself.

It should be noted that with your question above you employ the plural word "seeds;" whereas the Holy Spirit inspired grammar of Genesis 3:15 only employs the singular word "seed."

There is a godly line and there is an ungodly lying period Course the seed is singular and we know in Galatians that the seed is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. But we also learn in Galatians that us being in saving union with him we are also seed of Abraham

[BrotherTony]

2 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

There is a godly line and there is an ungodly lying period Course the seed is singular and we know in Galatians that the seed is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. But we also learn in Galatians that us being in saving union with him we are also seed of Abraham

Iconoclast...read your post...was this thing on the two lines, the last one being "lying" a fraudien slip?  Just asking for sake of reference. 

[Iconoclast]

41 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Iconoclast...read your post...was this thing on the two lines, the last one being "lying" a fraudien slip?  Just asking for sake of reference. 

That should be line...

[Iconoclast]

Pastor Scott has offered some verses concerning the word.....all

For example, he quotes titus2:11

In what way has that truth appeared to all men?

Yes it says those words, but what does it mean exactly?

Who are the all men?

How has this truth appeared to them?

I enjoy all these verses but we need to understand them.

[Jerry]

Actually the verse says this:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God's grace has appeared to all men. Just like Jesus' enlightens every man, draws all men to Himself through the Gospel. He makes the truth and the gift of salvation available, but mankind is free to accept or reject the truth, accept or reject the Saviour and His gift of salvation.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. - Doesn't say enlightens every elect person, but every man that cometh into this world (ie. all those who are born in this world).

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. - Salvation has been provided for all, the way has been prepared for all, all of sin's debt has been paid by the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

Pastor Scott has offered some verses concerning the word.....all

For example, he quotes titus2:11

In what way has that truth appeared to all men?

Yes it says those words, but what does it mean exactly?

Who are the all men?

How has this truth appeared to them?

I enjoy all these verses but we need to understand them.

Yea, hath God said?

Titus 2:11 -- "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN."

First, in this verse it is NOT a truth that has appeared unto all men.  Rather, it is "the grace of God that bringeth salvation" which has appeared to all men.

Second, the "all men" are precisely that -- "ALL MEN," all of mankind.

Third, the verse itself does not tell us how "the grace of God that bringeth salvation" has "appeared to all men."  It just reveals the fact for us to believe as God's Word has reported it.  Indeed, for the answer to that question, we would need to consider other passages of Scripture.

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

Yes it says those words, but what does it mean exactly?

Yea, hath God said?  But surely He did not mean what He actually said. (sarcasm warning)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The question above is a faulty question.  In Genesis 3:15 the seed of the woman is further described with the singular pronouns "it" and "his."  Thus the seed of the woman as presented in this context is NOT a "godly line," but is a singular male individual; and we know that the singular male individual who bruised Satan's head and whose heel Satan bruised is none other than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself.

It should be noted that with your question above you employ the plural word "seeds;" whereas the Holy Spirit inspired grammar of Genesis 3:15 only employs the singular word "seed."

3 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

There is a godly line and there is an ungodly lying period 

Interesting.  Iconoclast, you did not provide a single reference of Scripture to support your statement.  You just provided your own emphatic declaration -- "period."  If we take this statement at face value, then we would have to accept it upon your personal authority.  Yet true doctrine is NOT founded on ANY man's authority.  Rather, true doctrine is founded upon the absolute authority of God's Holy Word.  

So then, let us consider God's Word.  Do we find the phrase "godly line" or the phrase "ungodly line" anywhere therein?  While we certainly DO find the words "godly" and "ungodly" employed in God's Word to describe particular individuals and groups, we NEVER actually find either the phrase "godly line" or "ungodly line" in God's Word.  Now, when the word "line" is used in the context of humanity, it generally means "lineage; the descendants of a common ancestor."  If such was your intended usage for the term in your declaration, then it would have been better to use actual Biblical terminology, such as that there are two spiritual families -- the children of God and the children of disobedience.

3 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Course the seed is singular and we know in Galatians that the seed is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. But we also learn in Galatians that us being in saving union with him we are also seed of Abraham

So, in Genesis 3:15 the singular seed of the woman is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.  Furthermore, through faith in Christ believers may indeed be called Abraham's seed (as per Galatians 3:29).  However, this still does NOT mean that believers are the seed of the WOMAN in Genesis 3:15.  Indeed, Genesis 3:15 has nothing to do with a "godly line."  Rather, it has to do with a PROMISED SAVIOR.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Iconoclast]

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yea, hath God said?

Titus 2:11 -- "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN."

First, in this verse it is NOT a truth that has appeared unto all men.  Rather, it is "the grace of God that bringeth salvation" which has appeared to all men.

Second, the "all men" are precisely that -- "ALL MEN," all of mankind.

Third, the verse itself does not tell us how "the grace of God that bringeth salvation" has "appeared to all men."  It just reveals the fact for us to believe as God's Word has reported it.  Indeed, for the answer to that question, we would need to consider other passages of Scripture.

Yea, hath God said?  But surely He did not mean what He actually said. (sarcasm warning)

You quote the verse and offer no real explanation. I am looking for the explanation as to who the all men are. You avoided all my questions concerning that because it will show the shallow nature of your ideas,

You say all of mankind?

Does this include the world of the ungodly who perished in the flood?

does it include the over 5000 people groups alive today who have never heard of the name of Jesus?

Does it include Pharoahs army who were killed in the Red Sea?

 

For example;

Quote

you say this;Second, the "all men" are precisely that -- "ALL MEN," all of mankind

then you admit you have no way of knowing how this grace appears to them?, which means you lack any understanding of what the verse is teaching, but you suggest believe it without trying to understand it.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Iconoclast
completing the thought

[Iconoclast]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Quote

Interesting.  Iconoclast, you did not provide a single reference of Scripture to support your statement.  You just provided your own emphatic declaration -- "period."  If we take this statement at face value, then we would have to accept it upon your personal authority.  Yet true doctrine is NOT founded on ANY man's authority.  Rather, true doctrine is founded upon the absolute authority of God's Holy Word.  

You offered the ALL men verses, without an explanation , so I was trying to see if you could explain the statements at all, evidently you cannot.

Quote

So then, let us consider God's Word.  Do we find the phrase "godly line" or the phrase "ungodly line" anywhere therein?  While we certainly DO find the words "godly" and "ungodly" employed in God's Word to describe particular individuals and groups, we NEVER actually find either the phrase "godly line" or "ungodly line" in God's Word. 

More avoiding the real issue because you know you cannot defend your statements as you post them.

The word trinity , or bible does not appear either, so are you going to discount those terms also???

Did you go to any seminary, or bible school? If you did are you going to tell me you never heard the terms godly line, or ungodly line?

 

Quote

Now, when the word "line" is used in the context of humanity, it generally means "lineage; the descendants of a common ancestor."  If such was your intended usage for the term in your declaration, then it would have been better to use actual Biblical terminology, such as that there are two spiritual families -- the children of God and the children of disobedience.

The Godly line is used to trace the seed who are those in Union with Christ;

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Quote

So, in Genesis 3:15 the singular seed of the woman is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.  Furthermore, through faith in Christ believers may indeed be called Abraham's seed (as per Galatians 3:29)

. I already said that.

Quote

However, this still does NOT mean that believers are the seed of the WOMAN in Genesis 3:15.  Indeed, Genesis 3:15 has nothing to do with a "godly line."  Rather, it has to do with a PROMISED SAVIOR.

This reveals a lack of understanding of the Covenant Salvation we Have IN Christ.

He is the head, we are the body.

²⁰ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.