Our Appearing I'm Pondering

[1Timothy115]

When does the Christian’s judgement occur with respect to our appearance in Christ’s presence?

What is the composition of the Christian when appearing before Christ in judgement? soul only? soul & spirit? spirit, soul, and body?

 

[Hugh_Flower]

First question seems vague, but I believe you can conclusively point to right before the  Lambs and Church’s marriage..

 

second question I can only say by speculation, as soul and spirit. How ever what about the Old saints before Christ, those that were not promised our seal? No idea! 
 

[SureWord]

9 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

First question seems vague, but I believe you can conclusively point to right before the  Lambs and Church’s marriage..

 

second question I can only say by speculation, as soul and spirit. How ever what about the Old saints before Christ, those that were not promised our seal? No idea! 
 

"Those that were not promised our seal?"

Oh boy, did you just throw a monkey wrench into Baptist doctrine.

Let's go to the "original Greek" and see what it says.

[1Timothy115]

9 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

First question seems vague, but I believe you can conclusively point to right before the Lambs and Church’s marriage..

Let's take first things first. "When does the Christian’s judgement occur with respect to our appearance in Christ’s presence?" It isn't meant to be vague. I'm searching for an answer for when, the Christian's judgement spoken of in 2 Cor. 5:10, will occur since, "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" as in 2 Cor. 5:8 (which possibly could be the answer to my second question. Could you elaborate on your answer above, "right before the Lambs and Church’s marriage.."?

[Hugh_Flower]

1 hour ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Let's take first things first. "When does the Christian’s judgement occur with respect to our appearance in Christ’s presence?" It isn't meant to be vague. I'm searching for an answer for when, the Christian's judgement spoken of in 2 Cor. 5:10, will occur since, "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" as in 2 Cor. 5:8 (which possibly could be the answer to my second question. Could you elaborate on your answer above, "right before the Lambs and Church’s marriage.."?

In Heaven we have the judgement seat of Christ before we have the marriage supper with the Lamb ( Christ and the Church ). 
 

events; Church Age -> Rapture -> Judgement Seat->Marriage supper -> Second Advent with Christ -> Millennial Reign

On my way to work but when I get a moment I will use scripture to show this sequence 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Hugh_Flower

[1Timothy115]

2 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

In Heaven we have the judgement seat of Christ before we have the marriage supper with the Lamb ( Christ and the Church ). 
 

events; Church Age -> Rapture -> Judgement Seat->Marriage supper -> Second Advent with Christ -> Millennial Reign

On my way to work but when I get a moment I will use scripture to show this sequence 

 

I can agree with after the rapture (or physical death) and before the marriage supper of the Lamb. I've studied that out many times and had it presented since I was first introduced to Clarence Larkin. I welcome the opportunity to review the scriptures for chronology once again. I also wonder, is the judgement, 'an individual judgement', which occurs at raptured/physical death. 

[Jerry]

I agree with What Hugh said above - first the rapture of all believers being given their new bodies, then the judgment seat of Christ, then we come back with Jesus in Revelation 19. Other places refer to Him coming back with His holy ones, His saints - implying everything about our sins and sinful nature has been fully dealt with, and then He is coming back to judge the world and the nations, then rule from Jerusalem.

[Jerry]

I do not know if the New Testament presents a timeline for the Judgement Seat of Christ. It does possibly give one indication here:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It could be referring to the individual days we each stand before Christ, but it specifically says "the day", which seems to refer to the Day of the Lord. This is anytime during the Tribulation or Millennium - but from other passages obviously before Jesus comes back with His bride in Revelation 19. If this is referring to the Day of the Lord, it also refutes the idea that we each appear individually at the Judgement Seat when we die.

My opinion, the two passages that specifically refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ sound like it happens to all of us at the same time - not like Jesus is hopping on and off His judgement seat everytime a believer dies.

Romans 14:10-12 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:9-10 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[Hugh_Flower]

4 hours ago, Jerry said:

 

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It could be referring to the individual days we each stand before Christ, but it specifically says "the day", which seems to refer to the Day of the Lord. This is anytime during the Tribulation or Millennium - but from other passages obviously before Jesus comes back with His bride in Revelation 19. If this is referring to the Day of the Lord, it also refutes the idea that we each appear individually at the Judgement Seat when we die.

Tribulation time can’t be the ‘day’, because it’s still ‘night’ ( On Earth ). It becomes the day when Christ touches back down on earth. 
 

[Jerry]

I do not believe the Bible refers to any time in prophecy as the night (unless it was directed at an individual), other than to say the night is past already.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Several times Christ states He will return and catch the lost off guard like a thief in the night, but that is not the same as referring to that time as night.

In both Testaments, the end times are referred to as the day of the Lord, day of my wrath. In the NT, various places refer to the Day of Christ Jesus, day of Jesus, day of our Lord Jesus, etc. (worded various ways - just look up "day" in the NT and you will see what I mean).  From what I recall of studying out endtimes prophecy in the past, some people have referred to the Day of Christ Jesus as a subset of the Day of the Lord - but still occurring during part of the same time as the Day of the Lord (though not encompassing all of the same time).

A few places the end times are referred to as a time of darkness, even a day of darkness:

Amos 5:18-20 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Zephaniah 1:14-15 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

[Hugh_Flower]

 I do believe Roman’s 13:12 is saying it’s still night. It’s at hand as in the Day is soon coming ( Jesus is coming soon, morning or night or noon
Many will meet their doom, trumpets will sound
All of the dead shall rise, righteous meet in the skies
Going where no one dies, heavenward bound)  , thief in the night is a reference to that exact idea, Jesus is the thief stealing us in the night from who? Satan! 
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night
 

 

and the second Part is reference that this day is much longer than a day, but extends all the way to end of his millennial reign till the Great White Judgement throne

 

in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 

What do you think of that Jerry? 

[1Timothy115]

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

I do not know if the New Testament presents a timeline for the Judgement Seat of Christ. It does possibly give one indication here:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It could be referring to the individual days we each stand before Christ, but it specifically says "the day", which seems to refer to the Day of the Lord. This is anytime during the Tribulation or Millennium - but from other passages obviously before Jesus comes back with His bride in Revelation 19. If this is referring to the Day of the Lord, it also refutes the idea that we each appear individually at the Judgement Seat when we die.

My opinion, the two passages that specifically refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ sound like it happens to all of us at the same time - not like Jesus is hopping on and off His judgement seat everytime a believer dies.

Romans 14:10-12 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:9-10 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I agree with much of what you've said. I would suppose that the EXACT timing could not be determined, but rather a framing of time could. Much of the scripture you list is what I looked at when beginning a study of this. (Now before anyone takes it the wrong way, I had not settled my mind on these questions. I was seeking the counsel of fellow Christians - so don't think I'm unappreciative or just pushing an agenda).

I just recalled Romans 2:16, there is a specific time (I can't say "day" is a 24 hour day here, or it very well could be) when Christ will judge. "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." My pea sized brain can't make this the same as  "the day of the Lord" 2 Peter 3:10. Having just now looked at the above, now other scripture is brought to mind which I'll need to look at (1 Corinthians 5:5, Zechariah 14:1, and 2 Corinthians 1:14.

[1Timothy115]

9 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

 I do believe Roman’s 13:12 is saying it’s still night. It’s at hand as in the Day is soon coming ( Jesus is coming soon, morning or night or noon
Many will meet their doom, trumpets will sound
All of the dead shall rise, righteous meet in the skies
Going where no one dies, heavenward bound)  , thief in the night is a reference to that exact idea, Jesus is the thief stealing us in the night from who? Satan! 
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night
 

 

and the second Part is reference that this day is much longer than a day, but extends all the way to end of his millennial reign till the Great White Judgement throne

 

in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 

What do you think of that Jerry? 

I can agree with part, I believe we Christians would have to have been judged by the time we get to the "great white throne" judgement because as saints I understand we will have a part, that is, if only as bystanders. 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.

[Jerry]

Maybe "far spent" in Romans 13:12 means far along, almost over, rather than I was taking it to mean that it was over. I am not 100 % sure (haven't studied that exact phrase out yet.)

Yes, the Day of the Lord includes all of the events of the Tribulation and Millennium (and probably the Great White Throne Judgment as well), which would make that prophetic Day at least 1007 years long.

4 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

I just recalled Romans 2:16, there is a specific time (I can't say "day" is a 24 hour day here, or it very well could be) when Christ will judge. "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." My pea sized brain can't make this the same as  "the day of the Lord" 2 Peter 3:10.

The Day of Christ, the Day of Jesus, the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ, etc. is obviously the Day that happens in.

Perhaps it would be profitable to look up all the references that use all or part of that phrase (easiest way to find them all is look up Day and notice which ones refer to Christ in the same phrase). From what I have studied a long time ago, the Day of Christ is at the start of the Day of the Lord (though that could be people's opinions), AND maybe it is the term used to describe the time period in Heaven where Christ is dealing with His church (as the references I looked up the other day seemed all or mostly to do with the church - though was not exactly looking for that context, just for certain phrases), and the Day of the Lord is the time period where God is judging the world, dealing with the world. Yes, Revelation does cover some scenes in Heaven, but they are preparatory to doing something on earth.

[1Timothy115]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

Maybe "far spent" in Romans 13:12 means far along, almost over, rather than I was taking it to mean that it was over. I am not 100 % sure (haven't studied that exact phrase out yet.)

I'm unsure if scripture is pointing to literal (24 hour) days or periods of time and I'm leaning toward the latter for much of the verses from past studies and from references in this thread. However, it most assuredly could be accomplished by our Creator-God if He so desired to complete all of it in a day. Then again, time means nothing to Him, maybe He uses day for our limited understanding

Perhaps it would be profitable to look up all the references that use all or part of that phrase (easiest way to find them all is look up Day and notice which ones refer to Christ in the same phrase).

This is a good suggestion, now all I have to do is stop leaning on folks, then pray for wisdom/understanding, and dive into the scriptures. 

... the Day of Christ... the time period in Heaven where Christ is dealing with His church... and the Day of the Lord is the time period where God is judging the world, dealing with the world...

I am thinking along these lines of your emphasis and "Day at least 1007 years long" again, what is time to our Lord.

Timing between rapture/death and Christian judgement doesn't seem knowable. So, the second question of what we will consist of (in part or creature trinity) I was leaning toward Hugh's thought of spirit & soul. After the judgement, now I wonder if 1 Corinthians 13:10 can be extended to a new body.