Has Anyone Heard Of This Guy?

[Jerry]

An excoworker of mine (from the Gospel Mission, he worked there in 2006) is now believing some pretty wacky stuff about salvation. I conversed with him over a couple of emails yesterday, then he sent me a name of some teacher on youtube: Bruce Wauchope. Based on what my colleague said, I knew the teaching was wacko - but after my friend broke off contact (when I stuck with the Bible and how to be saved in Christ), I decided to check out the videos. He is definitely part of a cult - it may even be his own cult, but he is seriously lost. Uses enough of the Bible to get people to listen to his ideas, but then deliberately actively throws out the Bible (and emphasizes that it is not Scripture people need, but love, yada, yada).

I am not interested in what this man believes - just if anyone has heard of him and if he is part of a specific cult? It's sad that my coworker wants to willingly be part of a lie - that we are already all born again and in Christ (and accepted in Him already) - we just don't know it yet!!

[BrotherTony]

8 minutes ago, Jerry said:

An excoworker of mine (from the Gospel Mission, he worked there in 2006) is now believing some pretty wacky stuff about salvation. I conversed with him over a couple of emails yesterday, then he sent me a name of some teacher on youtube: Bruce Wauchope. Based on what my colleague said, I knew the teaching was wacko - but after my friend broke off contact (when I stuck with the Bible and how to be saved in Christ), I decided to check out the videos. He is definitely part of a cult - it may even be his own cult, but he is seriously lost. Uses enough of the Bible to get people to listen to his ideas, but then deliberately actively throws out the Bible (and emphasizes that it is not Scripture people need, but love, yada, yada).

I am not interested in what this man believes - just if anyone has heard of him and if he is part of a specific cult? It's sad that my coworker wants to willingly be part of a lie - that we are already all born again and in Christ (and accepted in Him already) - we just don't know it yet!!

The only things that I've been told about him are that he's a KOOK, and that his doctrines are "off the wall." I listened to some clips of him a while back, and I couldn't listen very far before I shut him down.

[Jerry]

It's like listening to a hyperCalvinist - teaching an elitist view of salvation. Only we have arrived. What about the almost 2000 years of church history before he came along? No salvation until he had his demonic epiphany?

One teaching he has is that there is no separation between us and God - we are already reconciled to Him and in Him. This scratches the itching ears of those who don't want to accept the Bible but are haunted by their sin and the gap between them and God (which is where it sounds like my coworker had gotten to). Oh look, there's no gap - it was all just in my mind!

Edited December 3, 2021 by Jerry

[BrotherTony]

3 minutes ago, Jerry said:

It's like listening to a hyperCalvinist - teaching an elitist view of salvation. Only we have arrived. What about the almost 2000 years of church history before he came along? No salvation until he had his demonic epiphany?

One teaching he has is that there is no separation between us and God - we are already reconciled to Him and in Him. This scratches the itching ears of those who don't want to accept the Bible but are haunted by their sin and the gap between them and God (which is where it sounds like my coworker had gotten to). Oh look, there's no gap - it was all just in my mind!

I was listening to the Trinity in you...and had read some of the literature...UGH! NO WAY! I'd get more out of the Book of Mormon! LOL

[Jerry]

The sad thing is that my coworker embraces this doctrine of devils. If he hasn't already gotten to the point where God has given him over to a reprobate mind, he is going to be that much harder to reach with the truth down the road. Also, it seems that more and more individuals these days are casting off their prior professions of faith to embrace anything else. Had another ex-coworker who grew up in an evangelistic home embrace Catholicism last year. Yes, a true believer can get so overwhelmed by false teachings they can get temporarily confused - but it is more than likely they were never saved in the first place, and finally found a doctrine or "church"/cult that meets them where they are at.

[BrotherTony]

22 minutes ago, Jerry said:

The sad thing is that my coworker embraces this doctrine of devils. If he hasn't already gotten to the point where God has given him over to a reprobate mind, he is going to be that much harder to reach with the truth down the road. Also, it seems that more and more individuals these days are casting off their prior professions of faith to embrace anything else. Had another ex-coworker who grew up in an evangelistic home embrace Catholicism last year. Yes, a true believer can get so overwhelmed by false teachings they can get temporarily confused - but it is more than likely they were never saved in the first place, and finally found a doctrine or "church"/cult that meets them where they are at.

I know that many of the people who have left the IFB movement that I know left because of abusive, uncontrollable, cult-like pastors. Most aren't this way, but there are a few. Case in point...Jack Hyles, late pastor from the First Baptist Church of Hammond, IN and President of Hyles Anderson College. He had some very cultish activities going on in his church and in his life. They ended up reflecting in many of the graduates of HAC, and in his own family...Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap. I'm not saying this to be offensive, but to be honest about the possible reasoning for people becoming misled and leaving. Doesn't mean they weren't saved to begin with...it does, however mean that they are probably living in the flesh and will pay when it comes time to weigh our works...wood, hay, stubble, or gold, silver or precious stones. 

[Jerry]

Okay, but to me there is a big difference between leaving a type of church and abandoning basic Christianity altogether. Do the people you are thinking of that left wacko IFB churches turn from church/the Bible altogether, or just from IFB type churches? I understand there may be a bit of time after leaving a bad situation before they sort things out (due to emotional and spiritual damage, the need to sort things out doctrinally, etc. - but if they never turn back to the Lord or attempt to find a somewhat sound church down the road, then that is a bad thing too. The Bible teaches that those who leave - and I will make the application to leaving the faith, not just leaving a particular church or group of people - were never saved in the first place (1 John 2:19). If someone abandons the true God, that is on them, not on the people that hurt them. (Yes, those people will bear greater judgement, but I meant if someone turns from the Lord God, they can't use someone else's actions as their excuse and have God say that's ok. We all stand before God on our own - others may draw us closer to the Lord or push us further away, but the responsibility for the end result is our own.)

[BrotherTony]

14 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Okay, but to me there is a big difference between leaving a type of church and abandoning basic Christianity altogether. Do the people you are thinking of that left wacko IFB churches turn from church/the Bible altogether, or just from IFB type churches? I understand there may be a bit of time after leaving a bad situation before they sort things out (due to emotional and spiritual damage, the need to sort things out doctrinally, etc. - but if they never turn back to the Lord or attempt to find a somewhat sound church down the road, then that is a bad thing too. The Bible teaches that those who leave - and I will make the application to leaving the faith, not just leaving a particular church or group of people - were never saved in the first place (1 John 2:19). If someone abandons the true God, that is on them, not on the people that hurt them. (Yes, those people will bear greater judgement, but I meant if someone turns from the Lord God, they can't use someone else's actions as their excuse and have God say that's ok. We all stand before God on our own - others may draw us closer to the Lord or push us further away, but the responsibility for the end result is our own.)

You're trying to build a doctrine on one section of Scripture. I don't believe that's correct. Just because people leave a church and never go back to another one doesn't mean they were never saved. That is part of the judgemental and pharisaical attitude many leave to escape. Just like the one man I dealt with many years ago who got divorced from his wife...they both had fallen into affairs and ended up divorced....the pastor of the church sided with the wife (the first one who had an affair) and ostricized the husband, going to the point of avoiding him when he came into the church. The husband was the first to seek reconcilliation. The man went to another church for a few weeks and then sought to join the second church, but the pastor of the first totally destroyed any chances of that with an inaccurate description of what was going on. Not only did he help to destroy this mans trust in pastors and church, but also his family altogether. The two got divorced and then the wife realized what was going on a few months later. She, too, left, and she and her husband were remarried by a local JOP. They never have stepped foot back inside of a church, but they give to missions, they buy Bibles and hymnals for churches, and hold Bible studies in their home. SAVED? I believe so! Disillusioned with the pharisees within the church?? Absolutely. Will they ever be brought back into a church? I believe they've got one in their house with their weekly Bible studies. I'm not called to judge their salvation...I'm called to preach the Word, and to care for the sheep. This pastor didn't do so, and caused another pastor to be negligent in what he was supposed to do as well. I'm not saying this is a common occurance, but, I know it's happened several times in my nearly 40 years as a layman.

[Jerry]

In my post above, I specifically referred to those who left the faith, not just left a church. Leaving the faith means turning from the Lord, rejecting His Word and His people, etc. Please base your reply to me on that, not on what you think I might have said based on your bad experiences with others.

[BrotherTony]

42 minutes ago, Jerry said:

In my post above, I specifically referred to those who left the faith, not just left a church. Leaving the faith means turning from the Lord, rejecting His Word and His people, etc. Please base your reply to me on that, not on what you think I might have said based on your bad experiences with others.

 Seemed like you were saying that leaving the church was leaving the faith to me...I'll reply how  I think is appropriate. Thanks.

Edited December 3, 2021 by BrotherTony
Removing a snarky remark I made that I shouldn't have...SORRY JERRY!

[Hugh_Flower]

The little I know is that he is a Universalist, which is a big enough flag for myself. Maybe approach your co-worker about the Judgements in Revelation, that would be a weak point of this  Heretical theology.

[Jerry]

I am pretty sure my old coworker has no more interest in emailing me or contacting me anymore. He was not too happy that I stated my beliefs were based on the Word of God and that I placed my faith in Christ alone.

Sorry Tony, I didn't mean to tell you how to reply. What I was saying was you were responding to something I didn't say and I was trying to say to respond to what I did say. That's all. I realize we will obviously never share 100% the same views, especially on the topic of whether someone is truly lost or not - BUT I wasn't trying to be ignorant or offensive in this thread.

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, Jerry said:

I am pretty sure my old coworker has no more interest in emailing me or contacting me anymore. He was not too happy that I stated my beliefs were based on the Word of God and that I placed my faith in Christ alone.

Sorry Tony, I didn't mean to tell you how to reply. What I was saying was you were responding to something I didn't say and I was trying to say to respond to what I did say. That's all. I realize we will obviously never share 100% the same views, especially on the topic of whether someone is truly lost or not - BUT I wasn't trying to be ignorant or offensive in this thread.

I believe you, Brother, and that is why I edited my post to a slightly less defensive/offensive response. It's been a long enough week, and there's just too much hitting the fan at one time. But, that's how the adversary works. Not a problem, Jerry.  You and I agree on more than you think. I actually took little to no offense to what you said, that's why I edited. I took more offense to what I said. Blessings.

[Jerry]

Thank you.

[Jayden]

Yes, I love listening to Bruce. He brought real truth to what it means to be an actual Christian. I really appreciated how he pointed out Platonic and Socrates world views in Christian religion. He's a real life-giver.