The Scandal Rocking the Evangelical World

Bouncing Bill · June 13, 2021

21 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

In spite of "demands for party loyalty" I know of several SBC pastors and members in churches throughout the country who DO NOT vote Republican. I know I'm not a Republican, but I'm not a Socialist Democrat, either. We're moderate Independents who are probably more right of center than most. We didn't leave the Republican Party, it left us in the 1980s. In local elections, we still will vote for a Democrat if it's apparent that he/she can do a better job than the Republican nominee. They can't do anything about the abortion issue, nor about several other issues facing Christians and humanity as a whole. I don't like to do it, but I will if necessary. I WON'T, however, vote for a Socialist Democrat in a national election just because they CAN and most likely WOULD support those things mentioned previously. Personally, I don't care whom the President of these organizations votes for as long as they follow their responsibility given them, and represent the people, the people's point of view and not their own (Russell Moore never did this), and won't bring themselves into question as both the former president of Lifeway did, and Russell Moore has done. Kevin Ezell and Ronnie Floyd should go as well. They tarnished their names and the SBC organizations they represent or have represented. Ready for them all to resign and NEW BLOOD to be installed...hopefully, more conservative people.

I am sure there are Southern Baptists who are nor Republican or Trump supporters. They are in the minority.

I agree with you. I did not leave the Republican Party. It left me. The same with the Southern Baptist Convention. This happened after the conservative takeover and they abandoned, IMHO, traditional Baptist stances on tolerance and how we treat others. To my mind, they also abandoned many of the teachings of Christ in favor of intolerance for others. To me the words in the final judgment convict many in the SBC. [Sorry about the change in size. I made a mistake when I was enlarging the font size.]

I have not kept up on the internal politics of the SBC. I defer to you on that. What you wrote is interesting.

I do not know what you mean when you use the word democratic socialism. I see them as abiding more closely to the commands in the final judgment. I do not see them pursuing the tenets of Socialism.

The tenets of Socialism are:

The main features of socialist economy are as follows:
(i) Collective Ownership:
(ii) Economic, Social and Political Equality:
(iii) Economic Planning:
(iv) No Competition:
(v) Positive Role of Government:
(vi) Work and Wages According to Ability and Needs.

These are different than the tenets of Communism. The tenets of Communism are:

Abolition of Private Property.
Collective Ownership of Means of Production.
Central Planning.
Elimination of Unfair Gaps in Incomes.
Provision of Necessaries of Life.

I believe Republican politicians use the word Socialism to instill fear. I am sure some know what they are saying is not correct and know what the philosophy of Socialism. I am also sure many GOP politicians do not know or understand that philosophy.

I am skeptical of all politicians regardless of party.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Bouncing Bill

BrotherTony · June 14, 2021

16 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I am sure there are Southern Baptists who are nor Republican or Trump supporters. They are in the minority.

I agree with you. I did not leave the Republican Party. It left me. The same with the Southern Baptist Convention. This happened after the conservative takeover and they abandoned, IMHO, traditional Baptist stances on tolerance and how we treat others. To my mind, they also abandoned many of the teachings of Christ in favor of intolerance for others. To me the words in the final judgment convict many in the SBC. [Sorry about the change in size. I made a mistake when I was enlarging the font size.]

I have not kept up on the internal politics of the SBC. I defer to you on that. What you wrote is interesting.

I do not know what you mean when you use the word democratic socialism. I see them as abiding more closely to the commands in the final judgment. I do not see them pursuing the tenets of Socialism.

The tenets of Socialism are:

The main features of socialist economy are as follows:

(i) Collective Ownership:

(ii) Economic, Social and Political Equality:

(iii) Economic Planning:

(iv) No Competition:

(v) Positive Role of Government:

(vi) Work and Wages According to Ability and Needs.

These are different than the tenets of Communism. The tenets of Communism are:

Abolition of Private Property.

Collective Ownership of Means of Production.

Central Planning.

Elimination of Unfair Gaps in Incomes.

Provision of Necessaries of Life.

I believe Republican politicians use the word Socialism to instill fear. I am sure some know what they are saying is not correct and know what the philosophy of Socialism. I am also sure many GOP politicians do not know or understand that philosophy.

I am skeptical of all politicians regardless of party.

The Socialist Democrat party (DEMOCRAT), has over the past 50 years continued to strive towards making this country Socialist in nature. They are doing exactly what the Socialists' who took over Russia back in the 20th century did, employing many of the same tactics that helped Russia to be toppled. You can't just look at the definition in the dictionary. You have to look at historical context, application, and results. Besides, I'm not a fan of ANY of the present parties in the American political system. None of them accurately represents what many people believe.

Edited June 14, 2021 by BrotherTony

Bouncing Bill · June 14, 2021

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

The Socialist Democrat party (DEMOCRAT), has over the past 50 years continued to strive towards making this country Socialist in nature. They are doing exactly what the Socialists' who took over Russia back in the 20th century did, employing many of the same tactics that helped Russia to be toppled. You can't just look at the definition in the dictionary. You have to look at historical context, application, and results. Besides, I'm not a fan of ANY of the present parties in the American political system. None of them accurately represents what many people believe.

I see no parallel between the Russian revolution leading up to their take over in 1922. I see no armed revolutionists, no purging, no violence. Indeed, the only violence I've see was that of the Trump backers on January 6th. I see no reign of "Red Terror", in November 1917. There has been no execution of Republican legislators. I see no deportation of Americans to labor camps, etc., etc., etc.

What tactics are you speaking of?

BrotherTony · June 14, 2021

49 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I see no parallel between the Russian revolution leading up to their take over in 1922. I see no armed revolutionists, no purging, no violence. Indeed, the only violence I've see was that of the Trump backers on January 6th. I see no reign of "Red Terror", in November 1917. There has been no execution of Republican legislators. I see no deportation of Americans to labor camps, etc., etc., etc.

What tactics are you speaking of?

You must be quite blind. Apparently you don't know much about world history. Besides, this ISN'T a thread about politics in the world. It's about the SBC. Let's try to keep it there. Thanks.

Bouncing Bill · June 14, 2021

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

You must be quite blind. Apparently you don't know much about world history. Besides, this ISN'T a thread about politics in the world. It's about the SBC. Let's try to keep it there. Thanks.

Sorry, you are becoming upset and posting implied insults. I showed examples from history and would like for you to do the same.

You are right, this is about the SBC. You brought history into it with your post about the Socialist Democratic party. Let's go back to the SBC.

BrotherTony · June 14, 2021

4 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Sorry, you are becoming upset and posting implied insults. I showed examples from history and would like for you to do the same.

You are right, this is about the SBC. You brought history into it with your post about the Socialist Democratic party. Let's go back to the SBC.

Me? Upset? Not by a longshot, my friend. I don't get upset. That's one problem with trying to communicate with just a keyboard and monitor! LOL Never have liked this type of format. I'd rather do face to face discussions. One can't really guage people's emotions and personalities through screens and keyboards. Peace to you.

Bouncing Bill · June 14, 2021

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

Me? Upset? Not by a longshot, my friend. I don't get upset. That's one problem with trying to communicate with just a keyboard and monitor! LOL Never have liked this type of format. I'd rather do face to face discussions. One can't really guage people's emotions and personalities through screens and keyboards. Peace to you.

Yes, cold print on the cool screen does not carry inflection and expression well. Face-to-face is much better. But we cannot sit and talk. It would be interesting.

I hope the actions at the SBC convention are not distressing. It will be interesting to see how things unfold at the convention. I am somewhat disturbed by the approach some conservatives seem to be taking as next week nears. But, like I said earlier the SBC left me years ago and I, sadly, do not see them moving toward the stances taken and taught as a kid.

BrotherTony · June 14, 2021

1 hour ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Yes, cold print on the cool screen does not carry inflection and expression well. Face-to-face is much better. But we cannot sit and talk. It would be interesting.

I hope the actions at the SBC convention are not distressing. It will be interesting to see how things unfold at the convention. I am somewhat disturbed by the approach some conservatives seem to be taking as next week nears. But, like I said earlier the SBC left me years ago and I, sadly, do not see them moving toward the stances taken and taught as a kid.

I fully agree on your premise the the SBC won't move back towards conservative values. I don't see this happening. It's sad, but most likely true. It's not even the same SBC that I joined 21 years ago. I'm not sure how much longer my wife and I will be staying in an SBC church. I'm finding that I cannot support many of the things that are going on within the cooperative program entities, and the way people are dividing over it, slicing and dicing each other over secondary issues when they should be trying to rectify the major issues facing the SBC.

Bouncing Bill · June 15, 2021

14 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

I fully agree on your premise the the SBC won't move back towards conservative values. I don't see this happening. It's sad, but most likely true. It's not even the same SBC that I joined 21 years ago. I'm not sure how much longer my wife and I will be staying in an SBC church. I'm finding that I cannot support many of the things that are going on within the cooperative program entities, and the way people are dividing over it, slicing and dicing each other over secondary issues when they should be trying to rectify the major issues facing the SBC.

What I fear is they will become more political and less Jesus centered, more Southern GOP and less gospel centered.

Pastor Matt · June 16, 2021

@BrotherTony Was there a big conference yesterday (15,000 or so) where the SBC was deciding the future? I thought I saw Gerald Wolfe post something on facebook about being there.

Bouncing Bill · June 16, 2021

22 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

@BrotherTony Was there a big conference yesterday (15,000 or so) where the SBC was deciding the future? I thought I saw Gerald Wolfe post something on facebook about being there.

Yes the annual convention and they have elected a new president. I'll post an article about that in this forum.

BrotherTony · June 16, 2021

2 hours ago, PastorMatt said:

@BrotherTony Was there a big conference yesterday (15,000 or so) where the SBC was deciding the future? I thought I saw Gerald Wolfe post something on facebook about being there.

It's possible Gerald was there. I tried to watch as much of it as I could on my laptop, but I didn't watch as much as I would have liked. Our internet connections out here in the boondocks isn't really great, even if it IS fiber optic! I correspond with many who were there, one being the man who is being sued by Kevin Ezell and the NAMB, along with the ERLC and is setting before the SCOTUS right now, waiting to be heard on the 17th (tomorrow) of this month. His name is Dr, Will McRaney. It's heartbreaking to see that things between SBC entities and persons is going before the unsaved. But, sometimes it's the only way to handle it when everything else has failed. I live just an hour S of Nashville, TN in a small town near Murfreesboro. I wish I could have been there as a messenger, but I don't think it would have made any difference.

SureWord · June 16, 2021

2 hours ago, PastorMatt said:

@BrotherTony Was there a big conference yesterday (15,000 or so) where the SBC was deciding the future? I thought I saw Gerald Wolfe post something on facebook about being there.

Yes, they voted to add the book "White Fragility" to the canon of scripture.

Reparations are next.

BrotherTony · June 16, 2021

10 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Yes, they voted to add the book "White Fragility" to the canon of scripture.

Reparations are next.

I hate some of the things they are doing. Overall, I do like the premise of missions cooperation to get more missionaries to the field. But looking at some of the things that the SBC's universities and colleges are teaching, I'm wondering just what these missionaries are preaching to people around the world that isn't compatible with the Word. I know that there really is no accountability to the churches, just to the missions board that sent them out, and the missions boards can tell them how long they'll be where they are, or recall them for "safety reasons." I've watched this being done, and it's very disturbing to see that they seem to have more power than the Lord's leading in these areas. UGH!

SureWord · June 16, 2021

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

I hate some of the things they are doing. Overall, I do like the premise of missions cooperation to get more missionaries to the field. But looking at some of the things that the SBC's universities and colleges are teaching, I'm wondering just what these missionaries are preaching to people around the world that isn't compatible with the Word. I know that there really is no accountability to the churches, just to the missions board that sent them out, and the missions boards can tell them how long they'll be where they are, or recall them for "safety reasons." I've watched this being done, and it's very disturbing to see that they seem to have more power than the Lord's leading in these areas. UGH!

They are replacing the old time religion with a new age one.

They are replacing sinners with racists and the only racists will be whites and blacks who dare leave the progressive plantation.