Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?

[Iconoclast]

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Just an observation here....this is the TYPICAL arrogant, self-absorbed type of posting many of us have come to expect from the followers of Calivn. Thank you for continuing to prove just how anti-biblical your position truly is. You say in your post you "leave that to God" I don't see that at all. 

You cannot prove anything I said is unbiblical.

You have to wait for someone else to try to do it for you.

I am here if you would like to try.

It is your posts that are arrogant and rude but looks like all you and others can do is make false accusations

 

[BrotherTony]

7 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Just an observation here, do you ever quote the bible or just hide behind the others here.

Besrinh false witnes is a 9th commandment violation

Have you even mentioned the bible yet?

It's CLEAR you don't read people's posts...If you look back through my posts you'll see I have. Speak of "bearing false witness." You're arrogant, sir, and consistently twist the Scriptures to fit your own purposes.You have consistently tried to antagonize and demean people, and to tell you the truth, I don't know how you've survived on these forums this long, as others have been suspended for the same attitude....

7 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

You cannot prove anything I said is unbiblical.

You have to wait for someone else to try to do it for you.

I am here if you would like to try.

It is your posts that are arrogant and rude but looks like all you and others can do is make false accusations

 

This is you're bearing false witness again. To be frank, with your attitude, youre not worth wasting time on any longer. Have a nice, arrogant, misled life. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by BrotherTony

[Iconoclast]

8 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

It's CLEAR you don't read people's posts...If you look back through my posts you'll see I have. Speak of "bearing false witness." You're arrogant, sir, and consistently twist the Scriptures to fit your own purposes.You have consistently tried to antagonize and demean people, and to tell you the truth, I don't know how you've survived on these forums this long, as others have been suspended for the same attitude....

This is you're bearing false witness again. To be frank, with your attitude, youre not worth wasting time on any longer. Have a nice, arrogant, misled life. 

No one has forced you to read my posts.

You have not interacted with any post to date.

I will interact with any biblical  offering you attempt.

Your unkind comments demonstrate no evidence of grace but I understand that might be all you have to offer.

I am willing to help if you want  and forgive your unkind remarks.I understand. 

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

No one has forced you to read my posts.

You have not interacted with any post to date.

I will interact with any biblical  offering you attempt.

Your unkind comments demonstrate no evidence of grace but I understand that might be all you have to offer.

I am willing to help if you want  and forgive your unkind remarks.I understand. 

If I haven't interacted with "any posts" since you've been on here, then why have you been responding to me? You're not only prevaricating, but, you're deflecting. In both of your recent posts to me here, you've prevaricated. This isn't a good thing. Neither is your twisting of God's Word to meet your own agenda. MANY here have responded here BESIDES myself concerning your twisting Scripture...and to be honest, THE HOLY SPIRIT is the one I would trust to lead me into "all truth" over Calvin or yourself and your warped understandings and rantings about the Word of God. I have nothing against you personally, Iconoclast, but, I DO have something against your attitude towards others, and the Word of God.

And let me ask one last time...Both Dave W and I have asked for your salvation testimony, which once again you have sidestepped. Shame. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so! 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by BrotherTony

[1Timothy115]

Noah Webster embraced Calvinism but, it seems to have been different with regard to the U and L of the tulip.

[Iconoclast]

2 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Noah Webster embraced Calvinism but, it seems to have been different with regard to the U and L of the tulip.

Hello tim,

Some hold all 5 pts. Equally. 

Some are hesitant with one point or another.

But this is certainly the confessional view since the reformation.

[Iconoclast]

3 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Quote

If I haven't interacted with "any posts" since you've been on here, then why have you been responding to me?

This is a bible discussion board. What I mean by interaction is...BIBLICAL INTERACTION.

Some agree and add verses, some to not agree and offer verses.

That is biblical interaction.

 

 

 

 

 

[BrotherTony]

10 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

 

And I have given Bible verses, as well as references to verses without posting the actual verse or reference point itself. Your point, sir? 

[heartstrings]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:04 PM, Iconoclast said:

God is Love that is true.

Sorry you confuse the biblical God with Islam and its false teaching.

This reveals you lack proper teaching on Gods decree.

You would dictate to God who should be the objects of His saving love?

I leave that to God as He has perfect wisdom.

He will save a multitude, and justly send multitudes to the second death.

I know the Biblical God and can testify to His character because I have been born of and indwelled with His Spirit and I have studied His Word. I don't "confuse" Him with Allah. I do equate the character of Allah with the false, manmade God(little g) of the fatalist religion called Calvinism .I don't "dictate" to God anything., But Calvinists do misrepresent His character.

Edited May 23, 2022 by heartstrings
Clarification

[Iconoclast]

10 hours ago, heartstrings said:

I know the Biblical God and can testify to His character because I have been born of and indwelled with His Spirit and I have studied His Word. I don't "confuse" Him with Allah. I do equate the character of Allah with the false, manmade God(little g) of the fatalist religion called Calvinism .I don't "dictate" to God anything., But Calvinists do misrepresent His character.

Fatalism is from carnal philosophy of men who would teach what will be will be with no personal being in control....the idea of fate.

The Biblical teaching that you oppose teaches that God is in total control of whatsoever comes to pass.

There is not one random molecule or atom outside of God's  control

[Pastor Scott Markle]

8 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

The Biblical teaching that you oppose teaches that God is in total control of whatsoever comes to pass. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

There is not one random molecule or atom outside of God's control

Mr. Iconoclast,

According to your understanding in the Calvinistic system of belief, does the Calvinistic system of belief hold concerning the absolute sovereignty of the Lord our God that He "totally controls" every single event that occurs?

Furthermore, according to your understanding in the Calvinistic system of belief, does the Calvinistic system of belief hold concerning the absolute sovereignty of the Lord our God that He "totally controls" every single decision of every human being and every angelic being?

[Iconoclast]

40 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mr. Iconoclast,

According to your understanding in the Calvinistic system of belief, does the Calvinistic system of belief hold concerning the absolute sovereignty of the Lord our God that He "totally controls" every single event that occurs?

Furthermore, according to your understanding in the Calvinistic system of belief, does the Calvinistic system of belief hold concerning the absolute sovereignty of the Lord our God that He "totally controls" every single decision of every human being and every angelic 

I cannot get the link to open...

Google 1689 confession of faith....chapter 3 on God's Decree.

This well thought out statement answers your concerns...I am working now but will discuss it more in detail later.

I tried to post it from my phone but it did not open.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Iconoclast
Link would not open

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mr. Iconoclast,

According to your understanding in the Calvinistic system of belief, does the Calvinistic system of belief hold concerning the absolute sovereignty of the Lord our God that He "totally controls" every single event that occurs?

Furthermore, according to your understanding in the Calvinistic system of belief, does the Calvinistic system of belief hold concerning the absolute sovereignty of the Lord our God that He "totally controls" every single decision of every human being and every angelic being?

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

I cannot get the link to open...

Google 1689 confession of faith....chapter 3 on God's Decree.

This well thought out statement answers your concerns...I am working now but will discuss it more in detail later.

I tried to post it from my phone but it did not open.

Quote

 

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

 

Above is a quote from the 1689 (Calvinistic) Baptist Confession of Faith to which Mr. Iconoclast referred.  It may be noticed that there is a self-contradiction within this point of that confession.  The point above begins with the statement, "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity."  Therefore, this is talking about that which "God hath decreed in himself" before He had created any part of the creation, that is -- before any existence of angelic beings (including Lucifer), before any existence of human beings, before any existence of sin or death, before any existence of temptation to sin, etc.  So then, the point above continues, "God that decreed in himself, from all eternity [that is -- before the existence of any part, good or bad, of the creation], by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ALL THINGS, whatsoever comes to pass."  Now, according to God's own Word Lucifer's proud rebellion against God (the very first act of sin within the creation) certainly did come to pass.  Thus according to the above Calvinistic confession, Lucifer's first act of proud rebellion against God was --

1.  Decreed by God in Himself.
2.  Decreed by God from all eternity (before Lucifer ever existed).
3.  Decreed by the most wise counsel of God's own will.
4.  Decreed by the most HOLY counsel of God's own will.
5.  Decreed freely by God's own will.
6.  Decreed UNCHANGEABLY by God's own will.

Basic logic would easily lead us then to conclude that the God of this confession is indeed the very author of sin, the very One who decreed in Himself freely by the counsel of His own will for the very first act of sinful rebellion to occur.  Yet this point in the above confession attempts to relieve this concern by adding, "Yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein."  Wait??  So, we are being told by this confession that God personally, eternally, wisely, holily, willfully, freely, and unchangeably DECREED sin, but that He most definitely is not the author of that sin.  I have to ask -- What exactly does "author" mean then?  Indeed, this point in the above confession continues further, "Nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."  Well now I am confused by the apparent contradictions?  Is there free will, or is there divine decree?  Can free will compete with divine desire, or does divine decree overrule all freedom of choice?  Finally, this point in the above confession concludes, "In which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."  So now, we are informed by this confession that God Himself disposes all things, which in the context of the point would seem to mean "all things, whatsoever comes to pass," and further that God Himself by His own power and faithfulness accomplishes His decree, which encompasses "all things, whatsoever comes to pass."  Thus according to the above Calvinistic confession, Lucifer's first act of proud rebellion against God, which definitely did come to pass, and thus was indeed decreed by God, was --

1.  Decreed by God in Himself.
2.  Decreed by God from all eternity (before Lucifer ever existed).
3.  Decreed by the most wise counsel of God's own will.
4.  Decreed by the most HOLY counsel of God's own will.
5.  Decreed freely by God's own will.
6.  Decreed UNCHANGEABLY by God's own will.
7.  Disposed by God Himself.
8.  Accomplished by God's own power.
9.  Accomplished by God's own faithfulness.

As for myself, I emphatically respond -- GOD FORBID!!! This is NOT the One true and living God that is revealed by His Holy Word!!!

Edited May 23, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Iconoclast]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

Above is a quote from the 1689 (Calvinistic) Baptist Confession of Faith to which Mr. Iconoclast referred.  It may be noticed that there is a self-contradiction within this point of that confession.  The point above begins with the statement, "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity."  Therefore, this is talking about that which "God hath decreed in himself" before He had created any part of the creation, that is -- before any existence of angelic beings (including Lucifer), before any existence of human beings, before any existence of sin or death, before any existence of temptation to sin, etc.  So then, the point above continues, "God that decreed in himself, from all eternity [that is -- before the existence of any part, good or bad, of the creation], by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ALL THINGS, whatsoever comes to pass."  Now, according to God's own Word Lucifer's proud rebellion against God (the very first act of sin within the creation) certainly did come to pass.  Thus according to the above Calvinistic confession, Lucifer's first act of proud rebellion against God was --

1.  Decreed by God in Himself.
2.  Decreed by God from all eternity (before Lucifer ever existed).
3.  Decreed by the most wise counsel of God's own will.
4.  Decreed by the most HOLY counsel of God's own will.
5.  Decreed freely by God's own will.
6.  Decreed UNCHANGEABLY by God's own will.

Basic logic would easily lead us then to conclude that the God of this confession is indeed the very author of sin, the very One who decreed in Himself freely by the counsel of His own will for the very first act of sinful rebellion to occur.  Yet this point in the above confession attempts to relieve this concern by adding, "Yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein."  Wait??  So, we are being told by this confession that God personally, eternally, wisely, holily, willfully, freely, and unchangeably DECREED sin, but that He most definitely is not the author of that sin.  I have to ask -- What exactly does "author" mean then?  Indeed, this point in the above confession continues further, "Nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."  Well now I am confused by the apparent contradictions?  Is there free will, or is there divine decree?  Can free will compete with divine desire, or does divine decree overrule all freedom of choice?  Finally, this point in the above confession concludes, "In which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."  So now, we are informed by this confession that God Himself disposes all things, which in the context of the point would seem to mean "all things, whatsoever comes to pass," and further that God Himself by His own power and faithfulness accomplishes His decree, which encompasses "all things, whatsoever comes to pass."  Thus according to the above Calvinistic confession, Lucifer's first act of proud rebellion against God, which definitely did come to pass, and thus was indeed decreed by God, was --

1.  Decreed by God in Himself.
2.  Decreed by God from all eternity (before Lucifer ever existed).
3.  Decreed by the most wise counsel of God's own will.
4.  Decreed by the most HOLY counsel of God's own will.
5.  Decreed freely by God's own will.
6.  Decreed UNCHANGEABLY by God's own will.
7.  Disposed by God Himself.
8.  Accomplished by God's own power.
9.  Accomplished by God's own faithfulness.

As for myself, I emphatically respond -- GOD FORBID!!! This is NOT the One true and living God that is revealed by His Holy Word!!!

I will answer in detail in a couple of hours.

For clarification let me ask you  some questions.

1] sin exists.....did it take God by surprise?

2]Does God have control over sin?

3] If Jesus was the Lamb slain before the world when there was no sin,why did He have to be slain?

4] Can anything exist or take place that God does know about?

5] can anything take place that was not ordained to take place?

6] Is the God you worship a victim who reacts to sin and rebellion,rather than use the evil of fallen angels, and fallen mankind, to ultimately bring glory to Himself?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

I will answer in detail in a couple of hours.

For clarification let me ask you  some questions.

1] sin exists.....did it take God by surprise?

No, sin did NOT take God "by surprise;" for the Lord our God is all knowing, possessing perfect before-knowledge of all things from eternity past before anything ever occurred.  However, the perfect before-knowledge of the Lord our God is not equivalent to the sovereign decree of the Lord our God.

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

2]Does God have control over sin?

If by "control over sin" you mean, does the Lord our God possess such sovereign control that He determines all circumstances so as to limit the number of choices that are possible to us in any given case, then my answer would be -- Yes.  If by "control over sin" you mean, does the Lord our God possess such sovereign control that He determines all consequences of the sinful choices that we might make, then again my answer would be -- Yes.  However, if by "control over sin" you mean, does the Lord our God possess such sovereign control that He determines that actual choices to sin that we make, then my answer would be an emphatic -- NO!!!  Yes, He controls/determines the circumstances around our sinful choices.  Yes, He controls/determines the consequences of our sinful choices.  No, He does not control/determine our sinful choices themselves.

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

3] If Jesus was the Lamb slain before the world when there was no sin,why did He have to be slain?

Because, as I stated in answer to question #1, the Lord our God possessed perfect before-knowledge of humanity's sin before the foundation of the world.  Even so, because of His loving and gracious nature, the Lord our God also before the foundation of the world established a plan of salvation for sinners.

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

4] Can anything exist or take place that God does know about?

No, as per my answer for question #1.

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

5] can anything take place that was not ordained to take place?

I really could not answer this question until I know how you are defining the word "ordained" within the context of your question.  Do you mean by the word "ordained" within the context of your question that the Lord our God predetermined (not simply before-knew) every single event and decision that takes place, including every single decision and action of sin?

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

6] Is the God you worship a victim who reacts to sin and rebellion,rather than use the evil of fallen angels, and fallen mankind, to ultimately bring glory to Himself?

The Lord our God is NOT a victim of sin and rebellion.  Rather, His response/reaction to the existence of humanity's sin was to predetermine a plan for victory over sin and rebellion.  (Note: Implying that the reality of response/reaction requires the responder to be a victim is inaccurate; for a responder can in fact be a victor.)  The Lord our God is always, through His all-wise plan and almighty power, the Victor.  As such, He is certainly able to govern the wickedness of sinful angels and sinful mankind so as to bring glory unto Himself.  Indeed, He will bring glory unto Himself in relation to the wickedness of sinful angels by ultimately obtaining victory over them when He casts them into the lake of fire for eternity.  Indeed, He will bring glory unto Himself in relation to human believers in Christ by ultimately obtaining victory over their sinfulness when He establishes them in perfect Christ-likeness for eternity.  Indeed, He will bring glory unto Himself in relation to human unbelievers by ultimately obtaining victory over them when He casts them into the like of fire for eternity.  Yet although the Lord our God can and does govern the wickedness of sinful angels and sinful mankind so as to bring glory unto Himself, He most certainly does NOT determine their individual choices to sin against Him.  Those sinful choices are determined by them within the boundaries of the freedom of choice that He has granted to them as morally responsible beings.

The Lord God whom I worship is NOT the one who has preordained or caused sin.  Rather, He is the One who has established a way of victory over sin.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle