Susan Warner / Wide, Wide World - Looking for discussion

[Chantie]

This has escalated quickly from an author and books I thoroughly enjoy to a much deeper issue I admit I am somewhat unprepared to address as it deserves. Your responses are thorough and indepth – and I find myself handicapped in my ability to respond as this deserves just from my lack of knowledge.  I will do my best to rectify this situation as quickly as possible.

First off, to Jim Alaska – I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying. Thank you (And Ronda and OFP) for clarifying.

Ronda – you have given me a LOT of info. I will be spending several days at the least going over it. But I WILL go over it. It will just take a bit of time so be patient with meJ

 

Jim Alaska – I can see your point on both issues. Whereas the Susan Warner books are entertaining, educational, and inspirational to me – it would be best for me to turn my focus onto the Bible itself to resolve these questions. I can also see your point about making contact with a church. I am a bit more hesitant on that point for several reasons, but not opposed. For one thing my work schedule does not allow for regular church attendance – I often work weekends and late nights and end up sleeping away many mornings and days. That is not a complete deterrent by any means – I can manage attending here and there should I choose too. Also – then the question is left as to…which church? You guys recommend a certain type of church. But then I am left with questions – how do I find such a church? There are so many variables when it comes to churches – even amongst the same denominations – it definitely makes things confusing. Of course the best way to overcome that is simply pick one, go, and see how it is. But nonetheless – those issues do make me more hesitant when it comes to attending a church. Not opposed – just…hesitant. J

The Bible I have no excuse for though. I intended to begin studying it yesterday at work but things ended up busier than I expected (I work for an electric company, can’t delay my work lol). However I have a few hours yet before I need to be at work so after I finish my chores I plan on beginning my study.

But here is a question for all – if belief is required – how does one get belief? Faith can be something that is a decision. You can decide to have faith in something without believing in it (though I am not certain I would recommend it). But belief is something that must be gained by understanding, knowledge, some sort of proof that brings about belief. Belief cannot – to my knowledge and understanding – be a decision. Am I wrong?

[No Nicolaitans]

Hi Chantie! 

As you work for an electric company, perhaps this example may be of benefit...

When you flip on a light switch, you believe the light will come on...yes? Therefore, you have faith in that. You may not understand all of the intricacies of how it works; you just believe the light will come on if you flip the switch.

Your faith in the what the light switch can do gives you the assurance to act on that faith by actually flipping the switch.

Faith in Christ is similar. The proof is God's word, the Bible. It (along with the Holy Spirit's help) will reveal the truth to you. Whether you are convinced of its truth will be up to you...

[Chantie]

Hello, Nico:) Thanks for your response. I agree that my faith in the lights coming on is based on belief. But that belief is based on evidence.

If I had no personal experience with electricity and how it functions, and someone showed me a lightbulb and a lightswitch and said "Hey, if you flip that switch you get light!", I would be highly doubtful. At least until I tested it and discovered that it works.

Now if you take your example even further - if I know that person who told me about electricity well and find them to be a trustworthy person, I would be more likely to have faith. Also, if perhaps that person had produced evidence through their life of the way electricity works (example: work done that would be difficult or impossible otherwise), I would be more likely to have faith in it at first. If perhaps I had seen evidence in electric textbooks I would be more likely to have faith.

But still - it is difficult to move from faith into belief without personal experience. I can have faith that the electricity will work as described will still reserving doubts.

[No Nicolaitans]

5 minutes ago, Chantie said:

But still - it is difficult to move from faith into belief without personal experience.

Chantie, I understand exactly what you're saying.

None of us (who are Christians) were believers before we became believers (that sounded weird, didn't it?...But it's true). We were shown the evidence through God's word, and we became believers because we believed what we read/heard. Some of us may have been exposed to some type of personal experience; such as, parents who were believers, attending church, friends who were believers, etc.; however, it still comes down to whether WE believed the record of God's word. That's the only proof that will convince someone. Sure, we may be influenced by what we see in the lives of others who are believers, but it's the truth of God's word that does the real and life-changing convincing.

If I may, and if you will accept, I would like to humbly ask you to take a few minutes to look over a very small website that I made. Perhaps it will help. Here's the link...

http://john3verse7.weebly.com/

Thank you Chantie.

[Jim_Alaska]

Chantie, in reply to your last reply to me asking "what church?"  This is a critically important question and decision, thank you for asking it. It shows that you may already understand that there may be a difference between churches, and you would be correct.

It is dangerous to give out personal information online. But we here at OB may be able to give you some direction if we knew roughly what part of the country you are in. No specifics, but we, as a group may have some very good suggestions based on personal knowledge concerning a good church.

We also have a "private message " feature on this forum that you could use if it comes down to recommending a church in a specific area or city. You could private message one of our group if someone indicates that they be of some help in your area.

[No Nicolaitans]

Chantie,

If I may, I would like to add a few things...but first, let me apologize for inserting myself into this conversation. I can imagine that it could be overwhelming to have so many voices answering you and giving input. So, after this post, I intend to humbly drop out of the conversation so as not to cause more confusion or questions.

I realize that in one way, the thread hasn't stayed on the course for what you inquired about; however, I do believe that the course it has taken is directly tied to what you were asking. With that said, I will try to quickly address your main questions...

On 5/2/2016 at 4:18 AM, Chantie said:

I realize that it is an idealized world regarding morality, etc - but specifically in regards to the christian life itself I am curious as to how it relates to modern christianity.

So a question for you guys - do you agree? Is this how you live your life, or how you believe you should? Or is this more of the culture of the time period and less of the culture of christianity?

That's a hard question to answer, and it depends on which "branch" of Christianity you ask. I haven't read the book, but from what I gather from the snippets that you included from her books, this is my answer...and I also realize that my answer could cause more questions or possible misunderstandings. After all, it's hard to cover every possible scenario or thoroughly explain what is meant by my statements...

There are those who believe a Christian can do whatever they please...that to enjoy the pleasures of the world is absolutely fine. There are others who believe a Christian MUST adhere to certain standards and/or rules of outward righteousness. My personal belief is this...the Christian life is one of growth. As the Christian grows in their faith and continues to nurture their relationship with the Lord, he/she will WANT to do the things that I've seen described in the book. However, it appears the book leans more toward a person MUST do certain things to be a Christian.

As the Christian grows, the things of the world will mean less, and the things of God will mean more. Therefore, things such as modesty (which the Bible does address) will be a natural manifestation of the Christian's growth...because they WANT to...not because they're MADE to. Now, the Bible is clear that we are to be separate from the world; therefore, there should be a difference in us as compared to the world. While that is a command of God to be followed, as I said, the Christian life is one of growth, and each individual reaches certain points of growth at different times.

All of that to say this...in general, yes, I agree with the morality as described. Yes, I try to live a moral life by abstaining from the things of the world...because that's what I desire...not because others make me do it. Do I fail? Yes I do, but with the Lord's help, I continue on.

Now, I think the thread went off your desired topic, because it appeared (from the book's snippets) that how a person acts (or the things that they do) determines whether they are a Christian or not. I sincerely believe that people here were concerned for you and wanted to ensure that you weren't possibly deceived into thinking a person's works, actions, or personal morality had anything to do with obtaining salvation.

Finally, to address a few of the things that you and I discussed...

4 hours ago, Chantie said:

Hello, Nico:) Thanks for your response. I agree that my faith in the lights coming on is based on belief. But that belief is based on evidence.

Chantie, have you ever visited a hotel (or anywhere that you've never been before)? If so, did you expect the light to come on when you flipped the switch when you had no evidence showing that particular light switch worked? I know I would, and I'm sure you would too. Why? Because that's the "nature" of a light switch. You believe a light switch will work whether you've ever seen the light switch before or not...without evidence that it works...because that's what a light switch does. You understand the nature of the light switch. Such is the "nature" of salvation. A person believes Christ will save them, because that's the nature of salvation...to believe in Christ's death for our sins, his burial, and his resurrection on the third day after he died. The evidence is his word. Just as you believe the evidence for the operation of light switch; one must believe the evidence of the Bible's facts concerning salvation.

4 hours ago, Chantie said:

Now if you take your example even further - if I know that person who told me about electricity well and find them to be a trustworthy person, I would be more likely to have faith. Also, if perhaps that person had produced evidence through their life of the way electricity works (example: work done that would be difficult or impossible otherwise), I would be more likely to have faith in it at first.

I hesitate to do this, because it can cause others to think that they should "experience" the same thing as I did. You prefaced your remark above with the stipulation of "knowing the person well and knowing they were trustworthy", so that leaves me at a disadvantage. You don't know me well, nor do you know if I'm trustworthy; however, I will still give you a small example of how my faith (as you so wonderfully put it) "produced evidence through my life of the way electricity salvation changed me that would be difficult or impossible otherwise." These may not have a "WOW factor", but they are still pretty amazing (to me)...

Evidence #1 - I used to use the most foul, vile, and filthy language. I thought nothing of it; it was a part of me. However, when I was saved...it vanished. I didn't even notice it at first. After a while, I realized that I no longer used such language. It wasn't because I decided to stop, it wasn't because I "turned over a new leaf", and it wasn't because I made a resolution to try to be a better person. The only explanation is that I became a new person when I was saved. The habit was gone!

Evidence #2 - I used to drink alcohol...and I mean I was a heavy drinker. I can honestly say that I wasn't an alcoholic; I just really enjoyed drinking. It was a part of me, and I enjoyed it. However, when I was saved...it vanished. Like the foul language, after a while I realized that I didn't drink or even want to drink anymore. It wasn't because I decided to stop, it wasn't because I "turned over a new leaf", and it wasn't because I made a resolution to try to be a better person. The only explanation is that I became a new person when I was saved. The old desire was gone!

Evidence #3 - Before I was saved, I would occasionally read the Bible. I grew up going to church and was exposed to the Bible there too. I would read it sometimes, but it didn't really mean much to me. However, after I was saved...I couldn't get enough of the Bible. I had one with me all the time. I kept a small New Testament in my pocket, I kept one in my car, one beside my bed, and I would read it every chance I got. I had a sudden unexplainable desire to read, study, and know God's word. It wasn't because I decided to start reading it, it wasn't because I "turned over a new leaf", and it wasn't because I made a resolution to try to be a better person. The only explanation is that I became a new person when I was saved. A new desire was given!

This is further evidenced in God's word; which says...

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Just like a newborn baby desire milk, and that milk will help the baby grow...a newborn Christian will desire the milk of God's word (the Bible), so that we may grow.

5 hours ago, Chantie said:

If perhaps I had seen evidence in electric textbooks I would be more likely to have faith.

You have the ultimate textbook...the Bible.   That's your evidence Chantie.

Again Chantie, if I may, and if you will (when you have time), please take a few minutes to look at the small website that I made...

http://john3verse7.weebly.com/

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Work for an electric company? As in: a generation / distribution company, (i.e. power company-  Alabama Power, MidWest Energy, Pacific Power and Light, Synergy, etc) or for an electrical contractor (i.e. Mr Electric, Baracko Electric, Greg Williams Electric, etc?) Your wording made me think contractor, your schedule makes me think power comp. unless you are doing industrial shut downs (utilizing 2 crews on 12hr/7day schedules.) I gather (due to schedule) that you do field work.

[Chantie]

Nico – please don’t think you need to stop posting hereJ We have gotten a bit off track of what I initially was looking for but I don’t mind in the slightest. I did look over your sight briefly and found it quite interesting. I had some questions regarding some of the verses quoted but need to look deeper into it before I start asking questions. I probably won’t have time to respond indepth to you or Ronda till this weekend – I am working third shift this week and during the few hours I am awake during the day I am somewhat limited on time due to chores and such. I did start reading Romans a bit yesterday at work during some down time and it is as beautifully written as I remembered. It’s also on my Kindle (need to hunt down my dads bible) which makes it easier to highlight and make notes on things.

 

I think appearances are deceiving with that book – I don’t see the author as teaching that actions and behavior make the Christian, as much as being a Christian make the actions and behavior. Which I believe is more in line with what you are explaining. I am still hoping someone here reads the book (or other books by her) because I really am completely obsessed with her books lol.

 

As far as your further reasoning on faith based electricity, I confess to being skeptical. J Faith on other light switches working is still based on physical evidence and experience.

 

Your report of what happened when you converted was massively interesting to me. It is quite in line with what I have gotten from Warner’s stories as well. Do you know of any good books written by Christians that tell their stories? I have a few I picked up from my dads library – he became more into Christianity in his latter years and I inherited a good bit of his library. One is on George Mueller and another is called “Shadow of the Almighty” or something or other. Both are on my “to read” bookshelf.

 

Again, I appreciate the excellent responses I have gotten here, and hopefully this weekend I will have time to dig deeper into everything.

 

@Ronda – I didn’t know Romans to Philemon was so much! It is quite a chunk of reading but I have begun.

 

@Jim - I will think about it. Thank you for the offer, and I may very well take you guys up on help in that area. But I need to think about it first.

 

@OFP – I was just about to post when the site notified me you had responded lol. I work for the power companyJ I work in customer service on the phone, and since I enjoy the late shifts people are happy to give them to me lol. Sometimes there is downtime between calls, sometimes not. Sometimes it’s back to back. But I love my job and most days I look forward to going to work. No one ever believes me when I tell them I work at a call center and I love my job, but its true!

 

 

  

 

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Chantie
Add in response to Jim

[OLD fashioned preacher]

 i have a sister who works for a power company. I'm on the low voltage side of life as a master electrician and electrical contractor. Low voltage as defined by NFPA publication 90 (NEC) -- 600 volt or less.

[Chantie]

@OFP Nice! I talk to you guys regularly, making apointments to drop the service so you can work safely.

 

Speaking of work, gotta run lol.

[No Nicolaitans]

8 hours ago, Chantie said:

please don’t think you need to stop posting here

Thank you; we'll see how things go.

7 hours ago, Chantie said:

I had some questions regarding some of the verses quoted but need to look deeper into it before I start asking questions.

Feel free to ask when you feel you have time.

7 hours ago, Chantie said:

Do you know of any good books written by Christians that tell their stories?

Not really...well...Foxe's Book of Martyrs is very interesting. Other than that, I could recommend a few "people" whose stories might interest you. I can't point you to a particular book though...other than the Bible.

1. William Carey

2. Adoniram Judson

3. David Livingstone

4. Hudson Taylor

7 hours ago, Chantie said:

As far as your further reasoning on faith based electricity, I confess to being skeptical. J Faith on other light switches working is still based on physical evidence and experience.

But it's still faith. After all, you're not only placing your faith in the switch actually working...you're placing your faith in the light bulb working, the inside wiring working, the power line to your house working, the main power lines working, the people in the office working to apply your payment correctly, the power plant working, the power plant workers working...you're putting faith in all of that (and more)...just for one little switch.

Faith that brings salvation is also based on physical evidence...Christ died on a cross, he was buried, and he rose again the third day. After his resurrection, he was seen by over 500 people. We also have the physical evidence of the Bible itself. You can hold it in your hands. You can handle it, read it, and let it speak to you.

As far as experience, no one can base salvific faith upon experience. You don't experience salvation until you have it. However, we can look at the experience of others...

Myriads of people have accepted Christ as their Savior through the centuries since his death, burial, and resurrection. Countless people's lives have been transformed because of him, people have been persecuted for him, and people have died for him. People have tried to rid the world of him, they've promised to rid the world of his word, and people have tried to do away with his followers...but...believers are still here, his word is still here, and he will forever be. People have hated him, reviled him, and persecuted his followers...when all he has done is...love them unconditionally and freely offer them salvation.

He knows you Chantie. He loves you. He bled, died, was buried, and rose from the grave for you.