After the Tribulation

[Matthew24]

No...once again, you only hear what you want. THE ELECT WILL NOT BE DECEIVED. You say Jesus can come at any moment, same as jews and muslims. The "Christians" that have never read their bible will be deceived.

[dianabrooks]

I liked this documentary.  I watched it almost a month ago.  i actually enjoy listening to him (although I don't agree with everything he says) but his "America Great Babylon" movie on youtube is what started me back to reading and listening to the scriptures online and pulled me out of practicing paganism (Thank you Jesus that's over).  I know that he offends many but I enjoy his sermons. 

[Alan]

Matthew24

In my estimation, you, and Pastor Anderson, are deceived in  many areas. Not only is your doctrine in error, but your total lack of civility is apalling. If one does not agree with you both you and pastor Anderson call them apostates without scriptural reasoning.

 

[Alan]

No...once again, you only hear what you want. THE ELECT WILL NOT BE DECEIVED. You say Jesus can come at any moment, same as jews and muslims. The "Christians" that have never read their bible will be deceived.

I heard Pastor anderson say the same thing, several times, and you say the same thing several times,we are not deaf. We know exactly what you are saying. You, and pastor Anderson are deceived in many areas: both doctrinally and spiritually.

[Matthew24]

I

I heard Pastor anderson say the same thing, several times, and you say the same thing several times,we are not deaf. We know exactly what you are saying. You, and pastor Anderson are deceived in many areas: both doctrinally and spiritually.

I don't think you are understanding what I mean when I say the elect will NOT BE DECEIVED. I am not talking about the elect will all believe in a post trib rapture. Matthew 24:24. For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. All I am saying is that the people that are saved will not be deceived and take the mark. I AM NOT SAYING EVERYONE THAT TEACHES OR BELIEVES PRETRIB ARE APOSTATE. I apologize for the misunderstanding, I wasn't being clear. I don't speak for Anderson but from listening to him a ton, I would say he would agree with what I am saying. 

[Matthew24]

I would say there are some preachers that know the truth but opt to teach the lie. It isn't popular. "God isn't a wife beater" lol....but wait a minute, does he scourge every son he recieves? The misconception lies in thinking the tribulation is God's wrath, which isn't in the bible. Directly after Jesus returns he pours out wrath(rev. 6-7). We aren't appointed to wrath. The bible never says we aren't appointed to tribulation or affliction. WATCH.

[Ukulelemike]

Sorry Mike, you are out of context with the children of light reference. This passage is in reference to remaining vigilant and always looking for His return in the clouds, check v 10, those asleep are also saved.

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

This is referencing His return for His people, the same thing referenced in 1Thes 4, the rapture. See, the Thessalonian church was afraid the rapture had already occurred and the tribulation had begun, but Paul first assured them of the reality of the rapture, then told them they didn't need to fear, because, though His coming would be as a thief, they would not be caught unawares because they were children of the day-they KNEW He was coming. If it is referencing His return at the end of the tribulation as King, (Rev 19), then there's no point mentioning it because in that case, whether pre-trib or pre-wrath, we will already be with Him and return with Him in glory. So it makes no sense to tell them that they won't be caught unaware, because they, we, will be WITH Him when He returns. We will return with Him.

[Matthew24]

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

The "big shot" is Steven Anderson who pastors Faithful Word Baptist Church ---->who has won 1000's to the Lord not only in the Phoenix area, but online as well. BTW, I wouldn't suggest a pretribber to take verses out of Matther 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13. Why? These are parallel passages that in 2 of them, directly say Jesus comes After the Tribulation. That is why pretribbers cling to 1 Thess. 4. Why? It doesn't mention the timing....but guess what? It sounds just like all of the other rapture passages in Matt, Mark, Luke, Rev6, Rev14. HE WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS, WITH POWER, AND GLORY< AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. HOLLYWOOD IS WRONG!

If you take the bible literally it says, we will not know the day or hour, but it explicitly says we know the time and seasons. We aren't in darkness.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Two different events.  1 Thessalonians 4 will happen first.  Why?  Because we rise to meet the Lord in the air.  We don't meet Him on the Earth.  The then takes us to His Father's House as promised in John 14:1-3.  While we are with Him at the Father's House, the bowls of wrath will be poured out on the Earth.  After all is completed concerning God's wrath on mankind, Jesus will return and set up His millennial Kingdom. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Not every eye will see Him in 1 Thessalonians 4.  He will be in the clouds, not on the Earth for people to see.

[Matthew24]

 

⁷Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[TheSword]

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As a pre-tribber, though probably not an expert, I'll address it...

When you look at Rev 14:14-20, there are two possibilities:

1) The reaping in v. 16 is different from the reaping in v. 19. - If this is the case, you might be correct that it refers to the Rapture, though you would be hard-pressed to exegetically support a hard distinction between subject and purpose of the two reapings in context because nothing is ever done with whatever is reaped in v. 16.

2) The passage describes only one reaping - If this is the case, it most certainly cannot describe the Rapture of true believers because they who are reaped are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (v. 19). This would conflict with 1 Thess 5:9, which I believe we agree says that Christians will not partake of God's wrath.

I lean towards option 2 because it fits the natural flow of thought better. The reaping in v. 16 does not specify anything beyond harvesting the vine. Indeed, the word it's translated from (therizo) can be taken to include gathering of what is harvested and storing it, but it is not a necessary component of the word. Rather, it is specific to mean cutting down of the vine/tree/branch. Even the English word "reap" is definitely a cutting down and non-gathering activity when applied to an agricultural context. In contrast, the "gathering" in v. 19 speaks of no reaping, but rather of gathering the crop and transporting it to the winepress. Additionally, the angel with the sharp sickle is merely cutting the grapes off the vine and not cutting down the vine. What I believe we see here is Jesus cutting down the vine (reaping) and the angel gathering the grapes from the vine for the wrath of the winepress. Finally, there is nothing contextually to demand that believers are in view for vv. 14-20. It is a distinct and separate segment of thought from the believers in vv. 12-13.

Based on all of that, I do not view Rev 14:14-20 as a description of the Rapture.

[Ukulelemike]

As a pre-tribber, though probably not an expert, I'll address it...

When you look at Rev 14:14-20, there are two possibilities:

1) The reaping in v. 16 is different from the reaping in v. 19. - If this is the case, you might be correct that it refers to the Rapture, though you would be hard-pressed to exegetically support a hard distinction between subject and purpose of the two reapings in context because nothing is ever done with whatever is reaped in v. 16.

2) The passage describes only one reaping - If this is the case, it most certainly cannot describe the Rapture of true believers because they who are reaped are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (v. 19). This would conflict with 1 Thess 5:9, which I believe we agree says that Christians will not partake of God's wrath.

I lean towards option 2 because it fits the natural flow of thought better. The reaping in v. 16 does not specify anything beyond harvesting the vine. Indeed, the word it's translated from (therizo) can be taken to include gathering of what is harvested and storing it, but it is not a necessary component of the word. Rather, it is specific to mean cutting down of the vine/tree/branch. Even the English word "reap" is definitely a cutting down and non-gathering activity when applied to an agricultural context. In contrast, the "gathering" in v. 19 speaks of no reaping, but rather of gathering the crop and transporting it to the winepress. Additionally, the angel with the sharp sickle is merely cutting the grapes off the vine and not cutting down the vine. What I believe we see here is Jesus cutting down the vine (reaping) and the angel gathering the grapes from the vine for the wrath of the winepress. Finally, there is nothing contextually to demand that believers are in view for vv. 14-20. It is a distinct and separate segment of thought from the believers in vv. 12-13.

Based on all of that, I do not view Rev 14:14-20 as a description of the Rapture.

There are a couple reasons I will respectfully disagree.

1: Different things are described as being taken, in different terms. 

2: the term "Ripe" in the two contexts are from two different Greek words, one of which can NOT refer to the grapes.

(I know everyone hates going to the 'Greek', but it CAN be helpful at times.) Notice how the two items being reaped are described:

      Rev 14:15,16"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." 

     Rev 14:18,19 "And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

  Okay, in 15 & 16, we see the "harvest" of the earth was 'ripe", and it was 'reaped".    In 18&19, we see it is "grapes" he is to "gather" the "cluster on the vine", because the "grapes are fully ripe"   first, a reaping of the harvest which was ripe, (and for those unfamiliar with farm work, to 'reap' means to both cut and gather up the harvest), and we have a gathering in of the cluster of the vine. There is a difference at play here, and the terminology declares it, as does the different meanings of the word "ripe' in both contexts.

Again, I know we declare we don't need the Greek, but as has been discussed in other posts, it can be a help sometimes. They were both translated as "ripe" and I don't dispute that, BUT the way they the ripeness is defined is telling.  In the first case, it is the Greek word "xērainō", which means, per Strong's:

1. to make dry, dry up, wither

2. to become dry, to be dry, be withered a: of plants;  b. of the ripening of crops;  c. of fluid;  d.of the members of the body.

So, it DOES mean ripe, but specifically dried, like ripe crops. Like wheat. And remember how God's people are described in Matthew? As wheat, as opposed to chaff? When wheat is ripe, it is known to be so because it dries up and turns brown and hard.   So first, a ripe, dry harvest.    Then, the word ripe in 18 is the Greek "akmazō" meaning, in Strong's, To flourish, to come to maturity. This is the only time it is used in scripture, by the way.

SO we have a REAPING of a RIPE, DRY product, BY Jesus Christ, with no word of what He does with it, THEN we have a GATHERING of the RIPE, FLOURISHING GRAPE VINE, (not very dry, I think), which is gathered by an angel, and then cast into the winepress of God's wrath, so clearly, these represent the lost.  Very clearly two different events, close in time, one after the other, but two different people, one reaps something dry, one gathers grapes from the vine.

This fits perfectly with they way I understand it to be: Jesus has just gathered his people, like wheat, (Matt 13), the so-called rapture, and the lost are represented by the grapes, which begins the falling of God's wrath. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Ukulelemike

[Alan]

⁷Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24,

You are in error. Serious doctrinal error.

As with Pastor anderson you cannot rightly divide the scriptures. Revelation 1:7 is referring to The comining of the Lord Jesus as KING OF KING AND LORD AND LORDS, to the earth, with the church saints as recorded in Refelation 19:11-21. Revelation 1:7 is not referring to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 for the church, in the clouds, and does not return to the earth at all.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Alan
grammer & title

[Alan]

"The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness." Proverbs 15:14

Your statement concerning C.I. Scofield and a Zionist funded commentary was vague, ambiguous and tended to make the casual reader think you are anti-Semitic.

In order to have full understanding, and seek knowledge in your posting we need more information concerning your posting. Could you please answer my above post, and the following two questions, with clear, precise and referenced answers. These three questions are important to understand your posting and reasoning.

1. Are you referring to the C. I. Scofield Reference Bible as a Zionist funded commentary?

2. Is anything financed by a Jew, or a Zionist organization, inherently bad? or evil? or unscriptual?

3. Please define, "Zionist."

Please give appropriate scriptual answers and specific, clear answers with references that can be checked and verified.

Alan

 

matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

Matthew24,

You said, twice, that you were ready to answer my four questions but so far you have evaded asking them. Apparently, you are not seriously considering answering them but are ignoring them. I am not surprised as your posting reveals your answer.

You, along with pastor Anderson, are  is anti-Semitic. You, along with pastor Anderson, believe that Brother C.I. Scofield was an apostate and that anything that is connected with Zionism is inherently evil. According to Romans 11:25 both of you are  Pastor Anderson is spiritually blind, ignorant, and conceited concerning the mystery of the Jews, their temporary blindness, and ultimate restoration to God. As the elect of God part of the nation of Israel is saved and most are blinded to the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. In the video it is very apparent that pastor Anderson  has learned this anti-Semitism from Martin Luther. Anderson has believed the lies that Martin Luther taught about the Jews.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungdliness from Jacob" Romans 11:25

Because  of your blindness you   Andersons blindness he cannot properly interpret the "Time of Jacob's Trouble, " Revelation 6:1-19:21 and the events surrounding the rapture of the church. In the video Anderson ignores, yes, ignores, the prophecies concerning the Jews and the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble,'  Jeremiah 30:7, and many, many other prophecies that properly interprets the book of Revelation. Anderson, and you, is ignoring the scriptures and privately interpreting the sciptures as you he sees fit.

 Paul also concluded the book of Romans with the admonition to the saints what we should  do concerning those who  false teachers that are teaching doctrines contrary to the doctrines in the scriptures: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." Romans 16:17

Brethren,

In the interests of being more gracious, and being a public forum, I have stricken out the references to Matthew24 being anti-Semitic, and will keep that privately held opinion in abeyance. The rest of the post stands and I am still awaiting the answers promised by Matthew24. I will, "endure to the end."

I have though kept the references to Anderson being anti-semitic as it is not just my opinion but open knowledge.

Alan

Edited October 1, 2015 by Alan
spelling strike-out scripture reference