John Calvin Had It All Wrong

[DaveW]

He has been defended by some here.

[John81]

I don't recall who, but I know some have put forth Piper links in the past.

[Calvary]

I don't recall who, but I know some have put forth Piper links in the past.

 

I did - in this thread in fact. Piper is absolutely main stream thought - he is in fact a TULIP based theologian, reformed theology most definitely. I quoted him as winman to demostrate that main stream calvisinm does in fact teach that the souls salvation by limited atonement

Winman may not be my theology as far as his ideas about Christ go, but his conclusion on no one can know oif they are elect is in fact spot on.

 

John 81, you are a fence sitter brother - always riding along in the middle, not making any waves.

If you cannot speak conclusively to what calvinism teaches, in the main, then perhaps you should refrain from speaking about it all. Or educate your self and stand up and be counted on one side or the other. We are speaking to doctrine here. Not personal relations or experiences.

Calvinsim - is it Biblical or not? A plain yes or no should suffice, and then present your evidence.

I am convinced that this thread has demsotrated Calvinism in the main is a false and heretical teaching.

 

God bless,

calvary

[John81]

I'm not sitting on a fence, my position has been made clear time and again here for years.

 

It's not your posting of Piper I was thinking of, I was thinking of someone who posted Piper as a positive example of someone/something they agreed with.

 

As far as Piper is concerned, I can only go by what I've read of him. From what I've read, he makes a lot of "out there" statements so that even many Calvinists/Reformed don't care for him. He does seem to have a strong cult type following among a subset. You are correct, Piper is Calvinist/Reformed, and I didn't dispute that.

 

Just a guess, but thinking about the matter I would say R.C. Sproul is much more widely accepted among the Calvinist/Reformed "mainstream". Myself, I know very little of him either.

 

The only "Calvinist" I can think of I'm really familiar with their preaching/writing would be Spurgeon.

 

The many books I have from Sword of the Lord Publishers are of non-Calvinist IFBs. I don't listen to many sermons online but will occasionally listen to FBN. The book I'm currently reading is by non-Calvinist IFB Pastor Scott Markle. I was discipled by a non-Calvinist IFB pastor.

 

If this thread had been only a matter of doctrine, it's likely I would have read and studied the postings without comment; unless I had a question. However, this thread has also gone in the direction of making assumptions and assertions that are directly opposed to reality.

 

I've no prOBlem with sound anti-Calvinist postings but when postings are made that claim to be what Calvinists believe when in fact that's not their belief, such should be confronted. Those sort of postings only weaken any anti-Calvinist stance and open the door for confusion among onlookers and makes way for Calvinists to have a clear shot at an exposed weak point. (I'm speaking in general here and not directly at you)

[AVBibleBeliever]

Has no one meditated on why Israel must be BORN AGAIN?

 

You consider yourselves to be students of God's word, yet this simple questions alludes you?

 

You would do well to stop arguing and bantering throughout this forum and just take time to ask God to reveal to you this simple truth.  And don't come back to the forum until he has revealed it.

 

Why must Israel be born again?

[John81]

Yes AVBB, that's surely the key to all things Calvinist (that was good-natured sarcasm, in light of your recent thread).  

[AVBibleBeliever]

 

Yes AVBB, that's surely the key to all things Calvinist (that was good-natured sarcasm, in light of your recent thread).

 

Would you mind then John for me to take the following communication to the thread on communication and show you just how offensive you are in your communication?  Or can I do it right here?

 

I've posted verses on this many times, including recently, and each time AVBB uses the opportunity to denounce the verses (including those others have posted regarding being born again) so he can promote his opinion that there are several different Gospels for different people and for different times.

 

The way of salvation is simple, as I know you understand. It's man that complicates the issue by trying to add traditions, false teachings, works and assorted hoops to jump through.

[Winman]

I've posted verses on this many times, including recently, and each time AVBB uses the opportunity to denounce the verses (including those others have posted regarding being born again) so he can promote his opinion that there are several different Gospels for different people and for different times.

 

The way of salvation is simple, as I know you understand. It's man that complicates the issue by trying to add traditions, false teachings, works and assorted hoops to jump through.

 

I just want to know how you know you are saved. I don't care what someone else thinks, I am asking you, and you only. 

 

You answer me and I will be glad to tell you exactly how I know I am saved. 

[Winman]

Winman, John, that quote from Piper could apply to people with all sorts of theology -

How can I know I am elect?

How can I know my decision for Christ is sincere?

How can I be sure that the assurance I was given by the person who talked me through the sinners' prayer is real?

Adrian Rogers ("disgrace to grace" sermon on Lot) told me that having said the sinners prayer, I am saved forever, even if I live a filthy rotten life - but can I really trust him? [i heard that sermon on radio, & checked it on line.]

 

The answer must be: Build your relationship in love with CHrist & his people, read his Word, pray & meditate on his Word, hate sin & seek to live a life in the Spirit. Those aren't works for salvation, they are evidence of salvation. Our Chrstian life is a walk with God in faith & love.

 

Sure, folks from all different beliefs doubt their salvation from time to time, but it is especially prevalent among Calvinists, and I can understand why. If I was taught that only a regenerated elect person can truly believe, then I would want to know if I am one of those elect persons. Otherwise, my faith could be completely false, how am I to know? And this is exactly what Calvinists themselves have written.

 

 It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.

 

Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

 

Isn’t this ironic? I have never had a call from an Arminian (or any other believer in conditional election) about this. In my experience, it is only Calvinists who doubt their faith in this way, with such traumatic devastation. Why?

 

This was written by a well known Calvinist blogger who answers questions for Calvinists. He says that the folks who have the greatest prOBlem with assurance are Calvinists. They don't know how to know they are elect, and they don't know how to know their faith is real saving faith. This is the natural consequence of teaching folks that only regenerated elect persons have the ability to believe. Unfortunately, these folks are listening to you. 

 

Just because you go to church or read the Bible doesn't mean you are saved, the folks in Matthew 7 called Jesus "Lord, Lord" (Lordship Salvation), they preached in Jesus's name, cast out devils in his name, and did many wonderful works in Jesus's name, and yet they were completely lost. So the fact that you do certain works or have certain religious feelings does not prove you are saved. 

 

So how do you know you are elect and that your faith is real? 

[Winman]

Has no one meditated on why Israel must be BORN AGAIN?

 

You consider yourselves to be students of God's word, yet this simple questions alludes you?

 

You would do well to stop arguing and bantering throughout this forum and just take time to ask God to reveal to you this simple truth.  And don't come back to the forum until he has revealed it.

 

Why must Israel be born again?

 

Why don't you just say why you believe Israel must be born again and see if folks agree with you? 

[Winman]

I'm not sitting on a fence, my position has been made clear time and again here for years.

 

It's not your posting of Piper I was thinking of, I was thinking of someone who posted Piper as a positive example of someone/something they agreed with.

 

As far as Piper is concerned, I can only go by what I've read of him. From what I've read, he makes a lot of "out there" statements so that even many Calvinists/Reformed don't care for him. He does seem to have a strong cult type following among a subset. You are correct, Piper is Calvinist/Reformed, and I didn't dispute that.

 

Just a guess, but thinking about the matter I would say R.C. Sproul is much more widely accepted among the Calvinist/Reformed "mainstream". Myself, I know very little of him either.

 

The only "Calvinist" I can think of I'm really familiar with their preaching/writing would be Spurgeon.

 

The many books I have from Sword of the Lord Publishers are of non-Calvinist IFBs. I don't listen to many sermons online but will occasionally listen to FBN. The book I'm currently reading is by non-Calvinist IFB Pastor Scott Markle. I was discipled by a non-Calvinist IFB pastor.

 

If this thread had been only a matter of doctrine, it's likely I would have read and studied the postings without comment; unless I had a question. However, this thread has also gone in the direction of making assumptions and assertions that are directly opposed to reality.

 

I've no prOBlem with sound anti-Calvinist postings but when postings are made that claim to be what Calvinists believe when in fact that's not their belief, such should be confronted. Those sort of postings only weaken any anti-Calvinist stance and open the door for confusion among onlookers and makes way for Calvinists to have a clear shot at an exposed weak point. (I'm speaking in general here and not directly at you)

 

Opposed to reality? I've shown you articles from well known Calvinists that admit assurance is a big prOBlem among Calvinists. That IS reality. These are not articles written by their opponents, but Calvinists themselves. 

[Covenanter]

Has no one meditated on why Israel must be BORN AGAIN?

 

You consider yourselves to be students of God's word, yet this simple questions alludes you?

 

You would do well to stop arguing and bantering throughout this forum and just take time to ask God to reveal to you this simple truth.  And don't come back to the forum until he has revealed it.

 

Why must Israel be born again?

 

Who or what is Israel? What does it mean to be born again? Where do you read your question? Not specifically in the Bible.

 

We are all born dead - dead in trespasses & sins. ( Eph. 2:1 ) We need to be made spiritually alive, aka born again, & so become children of God. ( John 1, 3 ) 

 

The evidence is that whatever free will the unregenerate have, man's choice is always to reject God. (T) Man only has a choice when presented with the Gospel. John 1 says that the world, & 'his own' (Israel) neither knew nor received him, EXCEPT those born of God. Do we become born again by receiving Christ, them that believe on his name, or do we believe because we are born again? They are two sides of a coin - if we believe, we are born again, & if we are born again, we believe. Note that it is the work of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) & not human birth, nor Abrahamic pedigree. (I)

 

And if we receive Christ, we are born again children of God, we are secure for eternity (P) saved by the atoning blood of Christ. (L) 

 

Of course "Israel" must be born again - as individuals. We can pray & hope for large scale conversion of the Jews, but as conversion means rejection by the Jewish community & state, the church would be swelled by such conversions, we may not see "Israel" being born again. In any case, true Israel comprises believers in Jesus, not unbelievers - not the present state of Israel.

[Covenanter]

I did - in this thread in fact. Piper is absolutely main stream thought - he is in fact a TULIP based theologian, reformed theology most definitely. I quoted him as winman to demostrate that main stream calvisinm does in fact teach that the souls salvation by limited atonement

Winman may not be my theology as far as his ideas about Christ go, but his conclusion on no one can know oif they are elect is in fact spot on.

 

John 81, you are a fence sitter brother - always riding along in the middle, not making any waves.

If you cannot speak conclusively to what calvinism teaches, in the main, then perhaps you should refrain from speaking about it all. Or educate your self and stand up and be counted on one side or the other. We are speaking to doctrine here. Not personal relations or experiences.

Calvinsim - is it Biblical or not? A plain yes or no should suffice, and then present your evidence.

I am convinced that this thread has demsotrated Calvinism in the main is a false and heretical teaching.

 

God bless,

calvary

John - I see your contributions as helpful - your give the impression of a faithful Berean, listening carefully to Scriptural arguments & not running with the those who are quick to shout "heresy!"

 

Our discussions are essentially between believers - Children of God, brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

What this thread has demsotrated (sic) is that faithful believers disagree about the interpretation of Scripture. I maintain that we should read it, in context (both historical & grammatical), compare related Scriptures, study how the OT is used & quoted in the Gospels, Acts & letters & Revelation, so that the consensus of Scripture itself guides us to understanding.

 

[i don't like "interpretation" as it tends to mean imposing a theological system on Scripture.]

[John81]

One of the prOBlems here is folks jumping to conclusions for some reason. Even when someone clearly says they are only addressing one point, there are those who want to lump them in with the every other thing.

 

Considering my testimony of salvation is in dozens of threads, both past and recent, considering I've posted both the salvation Scriptures as well as assurance Scriptures, it's certainly a wonder to be asked about these matters. Ephesians 2:8 is about as simple as it gets.

 

Back to the one main point I have tried to address here, that being the idea put forth by some that a person who is "Calvinist" isn't saved. That's not reality. You can banter back and forth all you want about the flower and understanding of the particulars and that's fine but that's not what I've addressed at all.

 

Even though I clearly pointed out in at least two separate postings that I'm not arguing for "Calvinism", some want to jump from the fact a person can be saved and yet hold to "Calvinism" to that being somehow a full show of support for "Calvinism". That also is not reality.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Who or what is Israel? What does it mean to be born again? Where do you read your question? Not specifically in the Bible.

 

We are all born dead - dead in trespasses & sins. ( Eph. 2:1 ) We need to be made spiritually alive, aka born again, & so become children of God. ( John 1, 3 ) 

 

The evidence is that whatever free will the unregenerate have, man's choice is always to reject God. (T) Man only has a choice when presented with the Gospel. John 1 says that the world, & 'his own' (Israel) neither knew nor received him, EXCEPT those born of God. Do we become born again by receiving Christ, them that believe on his name, or do we believe because we are born again? They are two sides of a coin - if we believe, we are born again, & if we are born again, we believe. Note that it is the work of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) & not human birth, nor Abrahamic pedigree. (I)

 

And if we receive Christ, we are born again children of God, we are secure for eternity (P) saved by the atoning blood of Christ. (L) 

 

Of course "Israel" must be born again - as individuals. We can pray & hope for large scale conversion of the Jews, but as conversion means rejection by the Jewish community & state, the church would be swelled by such conversions, we may not see "Israel" being born again. In any case, true Israel comprises believers in Jesus, not unbelievers - not the present state of Israel.

Jesus ministry was to Israel when he told Nicodemus unless a man be born again.  He was not talking about all men.  The whole context and ministry is about Israel.

 

So why must Israel be born again?

 

It is simple and I am surprised why so many go off arguing this and that and cannot answer this simple question.