Why Reject Truth When It Is Given?

[John81]

Does a church hold to the biblical means of salvation? Do they hold to the fundamentals of the faith as found in Scripture? Do they preach salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing? Do they preach pursuing holiness, sharing the Gospel, making disciples, prayer and other biblically important matters as found in Scripture?

 

That's how to find know or find a good church, a true church.

 

One doesn't have to make a timeline and play connect the dots to try and link a church today through the ages back to the Apostles; that's what the Catholics and Orthodox do to try and prove legitimacy. Yet look at what they do and say in comparison to Scripture and it's clear whether or not they truly a church of Jesus or not. The same is true with all other churches.

 

Do they preach Christ and Him crucified? Do they call believers to growth in the Lord and living in His service?

[candlelight]

Does a church hold to the biblical means of salvation? Do they hold to the fundamentals of the faith as found in Scripture? Do they preach salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing? Do they preach pursuing holiness, sharing the Gospel, making disciples, prayer and other biblically important matters as found in Scripture?

 

That's how to find know or find a good church, a true church.

 

One doesn't have to make a timeline and play connect the dots to try and link a church today through the ages back to the Apostles; that's what the Catholics and Orthodox do to try and prove legitimacy. Yet look at what they do and say in comparison to Scripture and it's clear whether or not they truly a church of Jesus or not. The same is true with all other churches.

 

Do they preach Christ and Him crucified? Do they call believers to growth in the Lord and living in His service?

 

I agree with you, John.  However, I know that the IFB stick to the fundamentals of the faith as they did in the time of the Apostles.  I am a born again Christian first, then an IFB.  Coming out of the RCC and immediately going to an IFB church was the best thing that ever happened to me.  I am godly proud to be an IFB.  I know many other IFB's that say the same thing, as they were taken out of the RCC as well.  It is a glorious thing to be taken out of darkness into light.  Every lost person that I take into the IFB church says the same thing.  And, as I said in other post, we are not a glum lot.  

[John81]

Yes, and that's the good point which can be see, the IFB church you are in is consistent with what the New Testament teaches of such.

 

Of all those who I know who came out of the RCC because they were born again, the vast majority immediately left the RCC and began attending a Baptist church.

 

Unfortunately there are a growing number of IFB churches which no longer hold to traditional IFB teachings and have strayed from the biblical model. Praise God for those IFB churches which still stand on the solid Rock and for biblically sound IFB pastors!

[candlelight]

Yes, and that's the good point which can be see, the IFB church you are in is consistent with what the New Testament teaches of such.

 

Of all those who I know who came out of the RCC because they were born again, the vast majority immediately left the RCC and began attending a Baptist church.

 

Unfortunately there are a growing number of IFB churches which no longer hold to traditional IFB teachings and have strayed from the biblical model. Praise God for those IFB churches which still stand on the solid Rock and for biblically sound IFB pastors!

Yes, it is consistent in what the NT church teaches.  That is why I asked the question in another thread, what a Hyper-Dispensationalist was.  I had never heard that until I came on OB.  I do understand that Dispenstationalists break up the Bible to better understand it, however, I had never heard that God expected works to be saved in other Dispensations.  I was taught it was His grace, from the time of Genesis to Revelation.

That is true about people coming from the RCC, John.  90% of my church came out of the RCC.  Our other deacon, was also an Atheist along with his brother in law.  Our deacon was saved, almost immediately, while we prayed for his brother in law for years.

That is sad about the other IFB churches.  I wasn't aware of that.  God's Word does preach about the "falling away" though.  I believe we are seeing the birth pains of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.  I do praise the Lord for the strong IFB pastors that I have had, along with the missionaries we support.  God is good.  

[Ukulelemike]

and so has what I am taught.

 

You obviously don't know or are not looking to see but no one got saved by grace alone until after Acts 9 when Paul started teaching the Mystery of the Gospel of Grace alone. 

 

Until John the Baptist and Jesus Came they were all saved by keeping the law in faith until they died and at the resurrection in the last day (GWT) they would receive their salvation and be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem because their names will be recorded in the Lamb's book of Life. 

 

Up until Paul's salvation every gospel presentation from Matthew-Acts 8.  Has to do with believing Christ was the Messiah, the son of God, the King from the line of David, and that he died buried and rose again as proof that he was.

 

After Paul comes with his gospel of Grace if anyone preached the Kingdom Gospel then they were accursed.  Apollos was teaching it until two Christians set him straight and then he preached the gospel of Grace after that.

 

Once the church is raptured then it reverts back to the Kingdom Gospel but if I understand the book of Hebrews correctly there is the revelation of the Christ's blood shed for the forgiveness of PERSONAL/INDIVIDUALs sins but no one who believes in the tribulation is added to the Body of Christ because the body is already in heaven and so they are added to the church in the wilderness which is those who will enter the Millennial Kingdom.

 

How does a Gentile get saved who is born during the Millennial Kingdom?  Remember Christ is on the throne and according to Hebrews 11:1 faith is not in what you can see.

 

Keep the Beatitudes and live right by those, come to the feasts yearly Zac 14, and if they die or if the end of the 1000,  years come they will stand at the GWT and those who live in the Millennial Kingdom who lived right by the words of the Beatitudes and kept the feast and it was done in faith they would go to heaven, their name are written in the Lamb's book of life and they will enter the new Jerusalem.

 

All biblically accurate according to the Bible.

Wait, so when Jesus, after His resurrection, came into the upper room where the disciples were locked, hidden away, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost", and breathed on them, and they were indwelled by the Spirit of God, born again, how are there works attached to this? In fact, this is REALLY by grace alone, because we don't see any of them ASKING and confessing their sins-now granted, they had been following Him, so you might count that as works, but before this, the Spirit had not fallen to indwell believers-this was the first act of the Comforter, as Jesus' ministry on the earth was coming to a close, or really, WAS closed. There were no works attached to the salvations of the apostles.

 

I also want us to consider Isaiah 1:

¹⁰Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

¹¹To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

¹²When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

¹³Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

¹⁴Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

¹⁵And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

¹⁶Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

¹⁷Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

¹⁸Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

¹⁹If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land

 

Now, while we DO see the Lord demanding obedience, it is only followed by being willing, ie, having a right heart. The Lord tells Israel that He is tired of obedience to the law when their hearts are wrong-get the heart right! The following of the law that is acceptable is only so when doing it in a right heart. So, could one JUST have a good heart without following the law, per se? Well, let's consider Lazarus, the poor man in Jesus' story: I suspect he didn't spend a lot of time 'following' the law, as he didnt really have opportunity to do so-he couldn't bring sacrifices, probably didn't attend many feasts, and anything he did in accordance to the law was probably almost by default, as he really only had time and ability to sit and seek food and shelter. Yet I believe he prayed and trusted God alone as his providence, and that's probably all he could do. Since he went to paradise after death, this must have been the case. But in his situation, I doubt he was able to do much else but trust.

 

Another issue with this, is that, of course, before the resurrection of Christ, the Spirit was not in the business of sealing believers, so there was not specifically grace by faith. Even Paul speaks on this in Galatians, when he calls the law a schoolmaster to lead us to faith, and when faith came, there was no more need for a schoolmaster. Some say, "But there was ALWAYS faith!" true, but then what did Paul mean? He meant that faith alone could not "SAVE", because without the work of Christ on the cross being completed, there was no final sacrifice for sin. So, yes, I agree there had to be works with faith, because there had to be sacrifices to atone for sin, a continual burning for the continual sinning. But once Christ's work was completed, salvation became by grace through faith alone, the very MINUTE He was resurrected. Not later. The salvation Peter preached on Pentecost was by grace through faith-the baptism was for, or because of remission of sins, not a requirement to be baptized to be saved. And we see no such demand for the apostles to be baptized for salvation-in fact, I don't know that the baptism of any of them is even mentioned. And if they were, it was John's baptism, not a salvation issue.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Wait, so when Jesus, after His resurrection, came into the upper room where the disciples were locked, hidden away, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost", and breathed on them, and they were indwelled by the Spirit of God, born again, how are there works attached to this? In fact, this is REALLY by grace alone, because we don't see any of them ASKING and confessing their sins-now granted, they had been following Him, so you might count that as works, but before this, the Spirit had not fallen to indwell believers-this was the first act of the Comforter, as Jesus' ministry on the earth was coming to a close, or really, WAS closed. There were no works attached to the salvations of the apostles.

 

I also want us to consider Isaiah 1:

¹⁰Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

¹¹To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

¹²When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

¹³Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

¹⁴Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

¹⁵And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

¹⁶Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

¹⁷Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

¹⁸Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

¹⁹If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land

 

Now, while we DO see the Lord demanding obedience, it is only followed by being willing, ie, having a right heart. The Lord tells Israel that He is tired of obedience to the law when their hearts are wrong-get the heart right! The following of the law that is acceptable is only so when doing it in a right heart. So, could one JUST have a good heart without following the law, per se? Well, let's consider Lazarus, the poor man in Jesus' story: I suspect he didn't spend a lot of time 'following' the law, as he didnt really have opportunity to do so-he couldn't bring sacrifices, probably didn't attend many feasts, and anything he did in accordance to the law was probably almost by default, as he really only had time and ability to sit and seek food and shelter. Yet I believe he prayed and trusted God alone as his providence, and that's probably all he could do. Since he went to paradise after death, this must have been the case. But in his situation, I doubt he was able to do much else but trust.

 

Another issue with this, is that, of course, before the resurrection of Christ, the Spirit was not in the business of sealing believers, so there was not specifically grace by faith. Even Paul speaks on this in Galatians, when he calls the law a schoolmaster to lead us to faith, and when faith came, there was no more need for a schoolmaster. Some say, "But there was ALWAYS faith!" true, but then what did Paul mean? He meant that faith alone could not "SAVE", because without the work of Christ on the cross being completed, there was no final sacrifice for sin. So, yes, I agree there had to be works with faith, because there had to be sacrifices to atone for sin, a continual burning for the continual sinning. But once Christ's work was completed, salvation became by grace through faith alone, the very MINUTE He was resurrected. Not later. The salvation Peter preached on Pentecost was by grace through faith-the baptism was for, or because of remission of sins, not a requirement to be baptized to be saved. And we see no such demand for the apostles to be baptized for salvation-in fact, I don't know that the baptism of any of them is even mentioned. And if they were, it was John's baptism, not a salvation issue.

I never said that faith never existed in any other age/time quantum/economy/dispensation. All three have always existed but the application of Grace was different. 

 

You need to rightly divide but as much as I say that, I feel you have a predisposition, because what you have been taught by other men, to think that that type of study is wrong when in fact it does help strengthen Biblical truths. i.e. I showed clearly that there are three primary gospels taught in the NT Bible and what they entale but you laugh it off and still see these three as One and the Same, and they are not.  So I will not discuss "your" understanding and imposing of Pauline indwelling into John's Gospel.  It is not surprising to me as it fits the agenda of those who make all the Gospels in the NT the same have to make the indwellings the same.  BTW and seek this out yourself "receive ye the Holy Ghost" is different than "receive the promise of the Spirit through faith"

 

I will not list out the verses that show how all these things fit together, show you the ages, the church of the wilderness, the body of Christ, the Kingdom, the church age etc You wont accept it so why should I waste my time.  I am not here to win you over I am here to share the truth and encourage you to study it out. Plus I don't want to go back and cut and paste every negative word and attack you have when I have done so.

 

Learn to study by right division.  It has taken me years to get to where I am at with it and I don't have it all.  But it is not worth discussing any of this with you because you are not discussing for learning you are discussing for the sake of arguing that you are right and I am wrong.

 

I don't feel you are wanting to learn and because of that it is no longer worth my time to go through all of it again and again.  You don't agree fine so be it.

[Ukulelemike]

There are multiple 'gospels', in that Jesus brought many types of 'good news'. But not all applied specifically to 'the way of salvation'. The gospel of the kingdom was not about, works+faith +eternal life, it was the good news that the kingdom of Heaven was at hand.

 

Matt 5:19 says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 Notice that the ones who broke it are still IN the kingdom of heaven, just considered the least therein. That tells me that doing and keeping isn't what got them there.

 

In Acts 15: "

⁷And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

⁸And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

⁹And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

¹⁰Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

¹¹But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

 

So here., notice Peter says that God gave the Gentiles the holy Ghost, 'Even as he did unto us", and then "We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, EVEN AS THEY". So, Peter seems to believe that salvation came the same way for the gentiles as it did for them. If they had to do works, and the gentiles did not, how could it be the same? Clearly peter didn't think the commandments played a part, as he called them a yoke that their they nor their fathers could bear. How, then, could that have played a part in their salvation?

 

Now I see the thread has been closed-who closed it? No one has 'fessed up to it. If you want to continue to speak on it, we can do so by PM.

[AVBibleBeliever]

UKU,  There is 98 uses of the word "gospel" in the NT of these there are three specific Gospels, I listed three specific types below, and the remaining 95 uses of the word GOSPEL (not good news unless you go to the Greek to translate it such) revolve around the first two that I pointed out - divide them properly among the first two and you have rightly divided the word of truth concerning the gospel presentations of the NT. 

 

The third is wholly different and only preached once and that at the end of Jacob's Trouble the Great Tribulation just before Christ comes on his white horse and slays them all with the sword of his mouth.

 

1)  Mt 4:23 ¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.  the Kingdom Gospel preached by John, son of the Priest Zachariah and Elizabeth, Jesus Christ, the 12 and the 70.

2) Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  The Gospel of Grace, preached by Paul and all of us today.

3) Re 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, The Everlasting Gospel preached only by one angel (I believe it to be Gabriel).
 

[John81]

There is one Gospel unto salvation; past, present and future.

[AVBibleBeliever]

There is one Gospel unto salvation; past, present and future.

you have not studied these out and it is obvious you have been taught that these are all the same without even observing the texts which is part of proper and correct Bible study.

 

But if you don't agree fine, lack understanding if you want I wont hold you back, but why reject the truth when it is given?

[AVBibleBeliever]

UKU,  There is 98 uses of the word "gospel" in the NT of these there are three specific Gospels, I listed three specific types below, and the remaining 95 uses of the word GOSPEL (not good news unless you go to the Greek to translate it such) revolve around the first two that I pointed out - divide them properly among the first two and you have rightly divided the word of truth concerning the gospel presentations of the NT. 

 

The third is wholly different and only preached once and that at the end of Jacob's Trouble the Great Tribulation just before Christ comes on his white horse and slays them all with the sword of his mouth.

 

1)  Mt 4:23 ¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.  the Kingdom Gospel preached by John, son of the Priest Zachariah and Elizabeth, Jesus Christ, the 12 and the 70.

2) Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  The Gospel of Grace, preached by Paul and all of us today.

3) Re 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, The Everlasting Gospel preached only by one angel (I believe it to be Gabriel).
 

If anyone is willing to study this out.  When looking at these observe the text and see what is required when one believes the Gospel that is being preached.  i.e. Kingdom gospel - repent, be baptized, follow the commandments of God and Christ.  the Gospel of Grace - faith alone.  The Eternal Gospel - Fear God, give him glory, worship him.

 

Now when do each of them receive the grace of God, which is their salvation?  This is a little more difficult. 

[John81]

AVBB,

 

I'm pretty sure we've never met and I know you've never spent time with me over the years, at any time, when I've read and studied the Word of God.

 

I've studied the matter carefully directly from the Word of God.

 

Odd that every time someone disagrees with your view you accuse them of not having studied, of not knowing as much as you and having been taught things by those you obviously believe don't know what they are teaching.

 

Interesting to note that many here have biblically studied the matter and see the clear biblical teaching that there is one Gospel of salvation for all people of all time and yet you believe you have studied more than any of them and know more than any.

 

If we broaden this out, we see the same one Gospel of salvation view long held by Baptist scholars, pastors, evangelists and laity.

[AVBibleBeliever]

AVBB,

 

I'm pretty sure we've never met and I know you've never spent time with me over the years, at any time, when I've read and studied the Word of God.

 

I've studied the matter carefully directly from the Word of God.

 

Odd that every time someone disagrees with your view you accuse them of not having studied, of not knowing as much as you and having been taught things by those you obviously believe don't know what they are teaching.

 

Interesting to note that many here have biblically studied the matter and see the clear biblical teaching that there is one Gospel of salvation for all people of all time and yet you believe you have studied more than any of them and know more than any.

 

If we broaden this out, we see the same one Gospel of salvation view long held by Baptist scholars, pastors, evangelists and laity.

Then why do you reject the obvious truth concerning these things?  

 

I have been around enough peoples study and I can tell when some one is pretexting(coming to the text with a preconceived idea to impose on the text) their study.  Especially when they express statement the same thing over and over like a JW without ever having a support text to show they are absolutely the same.

 

things which are different are not the same.

 

I showed the differences but you don't want to admit there are differences between these. 

 

This is why I get tired of showing it over and over and over with those who have no inkling to learn that is what I posted earlier.  It is just a waste of time.  the problem is you reject the truth when it is shown and then call me the false teacher/heretic without even a verse to support what you claim.

 

The only thing that connects ALL three of these presentations of the Gospel is Christ, and that is even a deeper study than you are willing to do.  You just figure Christ is connect therefore they are the same.  If you will compare spiritual with spiritual and look at the difference only one conclusion can there be, they are different.

[DaveW]

John 3
 14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

 15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 2
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Peter's Gospel stated)

38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Peter's Gospel explained - the same as John's Gospel...)


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(Paul's Gospel - scope of. )


The detail of Paul's Gospel:
1 Corinthians 15

 1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

 2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 10
 9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I don't know - it seems to me that Jesus said a man is saved by believing on Him.
it seems that Peter said a man is saved by believing on Jesus.
It seems like Paul said a man is saved by believing on Jesus.

I guess I am just too dim to understand what the Bible says.
I guess I need some man to explain how these words don't mean what they appear to mean.

Even John's Gospel fits with this - who was He pointing the people to?
Jesus Christ - he preached many things just as preachers do today, but not all of those things were "his Gospel".

Poor me - I read the Bible and come to a particular opinion on a thing that is obviously wrong. Where will I find a man to show me the error of my understanding, since I can't trust what the Word of God says alone.

[candlelight]

AVBB, your words are very prideful and condescending.  You act like you are a Biblical scholar.  In my opinion, no man is a Biblical scholar.  As the secular phrase goes, "No one has arrived."  We are always learning more and more.  

Different gospels?  You are the first person that I have heard this from and I have been attending an IFB church since 1999.  There is only one Gospel.  Also, I can understand how you divide God's Word into different Dispensations; however, man has always been saved by grace and coming to faith in Jesus Christ.