Repent Of The Mark?

[candlelight]

NO, no, NOW, of course, they can. We are in the times before, certainly the last days, but not THE last. Yes, the grace of God is continuing on. I believe, unlike some, that the great tribulation will be during the entire 7 years, save for the time of wrath, from the day the Antichrist comes to power, at the first seal.

 

I also see the seals as an overview of the entire seven years, not specific events in a timeline, per se, but sort of a table of contents. hence why, at the sixth (?) seal we see the coming of the Lord and the rich men, etc, crying for the rocks and mountains to fall upon them-that won't happen twice, only at the great and terrible day of the coming of the wrath of the Lamb.

Okay.  I was a bit shaken by your response.  As other people, I have so many lost family members in need of salvation.  As I look around, it is painfully obvious to believers that time in running out.  However, the lost have no clue.  I was hoping for more prayer time, witnessing and just showing them Christian living for them to be attracted to those that live for Christ Jesus.  I pray for lost souls all the time.  When does the Anti-Christ step on the seen, Mike?  Because after that, it is dismal as to salvation for the lost.

You know?  You sound like my husband in the way you speak.  I told him what you said about a Post Tribulation and he wasn't surprised.  He thinks we have much more time on this earth, to bring souls to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.  He, as well as I, that he sees so many lost people that haven't heard the gospel.  

So, do you believe that we are in the Book of Revelation -End Times, and just not in the Last Days?

[AVBibleBeliever]

1. "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous". Ps 69:28. So yes, the unrighteous ARE written in the book of the living, just not the Lambs book of life.

 

Furthermore, if only the righteous are written in the book of the living/book of life, then what does that say about them if they can be removed?

 

2.  Second Peter 2:21 shows that persons can be enlightened, but not saved. A person can be enlightened through general revelation (Psalm 97:4, Eph 3:9 [same word for enlightened in Heb 6 is used in Eph 3:9]). To say the men can be enlightened meaning they are saved is a form of the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace. Enlighten just means to see, but once a person sees he can still reject the truth.

 

3. I agree with you on the last one, but believe that it will include a multitude of non Jewish people as well considering Zechariah 8:20-23, Isaiah 60:12 and Isaiah 65:20:

that scripture is to Israel only because God promised all Israel will be saved.  However his word also says the wicked of Israel would be cut of this book you are viewing is concerning Israel no gentiles.

 

Hebrew six is Jews again under the kingdom gospel preached up until the everlasting angelic Gospel to all men is preached.

 

Eph 3:9 in ENGLISH makes no reference to enlightenment that people rejected.  to make all men see what the mystery of being the grace we received salvation at our moment of belief and it is speaking of those in the Body of Christ only.

 

You cannot go to the Greek to change the English ans still claim the KJV is the preserved word of God for today.

[beameup]

Re 11:11 And <kai> after <meta> three <treis> days <hemera> and <kai> an half <hemisu> the Spirit <pneuma> of life <zoe> from <ek> God <theos> entered <eiserchomai> into <epi> them, <autos> and <kai> they stood <histemi> upon <epi> their <autos> feet; <pous> and <kai> great <megas> fear <phobos> fell <pipto> upon <epi> them which saw <theoreo> them. <autos>
 12 And <kai> they heard <akouo> a great <megas> voice <phone> from <ek> heaven <ouranos> saying <lego> unto them, <autos> Come up <anabaino> hither. <hode> And <kai> they ascended up <anabaino> to <eis> heaven <ouranos> in <en> a cloud; <nephele> and <kai> their <autos> enemies <echthros> beheld <theoreo> them. <autos>

 

No harpazo concerning the two witnesses, the word there is "anabaino" which means one of these arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

 

what is interesting here is that you have a resurrection 'anistemi'a rise up that is not called a resurrection,  and a coming up which is not called a rapture or harpazo

Quoting the Koine Greek I see.  The English KJV says "caught up". The discription is of God removing people from the earth.

Was Enoch "removed from the earth"?  Was Elijah "removed from the earth"?  Will the two witness of Revelation be "removed from the earth"?

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, a

nd parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up (Heb `alah) by a whirlwind into heaven.  2 Kings 2:11  [to go up, ascend]

 

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him (Heb laqach ). Genesis 5:24   [snatch, take away]

 

God deals with Israel completely separate from the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ must be "removed from the earth"

prior to the 70th Week of Daniel (7 year period - ie: Tribulation).  Confusion comes from not "rightly dividing" the Scriptures -

not separating the Pauline Epistles (which are TO the Body of Christ) from the rest of Scripture which is TO Jews.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Quoting the Koine Greek I see.  The English KJV says "caught up". The discription is of God removing people from the earth.

Was Enoch "removed from the earth"?  Was Elijah "removed from the earth"?  Will the two witness of Revelation be "removed from the earth"?

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, a

nd parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up (Heb `alah) by a whirlwind into heaven.  2 Kings 2:11  [to go up, ascend]

 

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him (Heb laqach ). Genesis 5:24   [snatch, take away]

 

God deals with Israel completely separate from the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ must be "removed from the earth"

prior to the 70th Week of Daniel (7 year period - ie: Tribulation).  Confusion comes from not "rightly dividing" the Scriptures -

not separating the Pauline Epistles (which are TO the Body of Christ) from the rest of Scripture which is TO Jews.

Beameup, I did recognize you said "some Christians believe" in multiple removals pre and mid tribulation.  I didn't think you were saying you did.  I was just commenting on some of what you were saying other believed that a "second harpazo" of the 2 witnesses but the Greek Word harpazo in not in the Greek or the English equivalent

 

I was just doing it because you said or alluded to the word harpazo by saying a "second harpazo" was in Rev. 11 so English Greek interlinear was used to show that neither Harpazo or caught up was in the text of Rev 11.  Normally I try not to quote any Greek but I was showing that the English words "come up" was not "caught up", so they are different and things that are different are not the same. 

 

yepper, and in each of the cases of Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus Christ and those that sleep in Christ and we who remain, and the 2 witnesses we can see by the word of God how and when they went up.  But the word does not say how and when the 144,000 were removed from the earth just one minute they are seen in the earth, and in the next they are seen in heaven.  A twinkling of an eye moment more or less I would say.

 

I have been rightly dividing the scriptures, between Israel and the Body of Christ, and what goes on before the tribulation and after.

 

I do believe in a pre-tribulational catching up of the body of Christ both those who sleep in Chrsit and those that are alive at his coming for them.

 

Notice I didn't say I divided between Israel and the church?

 

That is because the church in the wilderness is Israel.  The church of the first born is Israel.  but we today Jew or Gentile who believe the gospel of the grace of God are the church of God, the body of Christ.  So I divide between them as well.

 

Did I ask you to share how you rightly divide the word of Truth?  can you please?

[beameup]

Beameup, I did recognize you said "some Christians believe" in multiple removals pre and mid tribulation.  I didn't think you were saying you did.  I was just commenting on some of what you were saying other believed that a "second harpazo" of the 2 witnesses but the Greek Word harpazo in not in the Greek or the English equivalent

----

I have been rightly dividing the scriptures, between Israel and the Body of Christ, and what goes on before the tribulation and after.

----

 Did I ask you to share how you rightly divide the word of Truth?  can you please?

In the case of the two witnesses in Revelation, it does not say that they were "harpazo",

it just says: "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended"

Now, did God say to Enoch or Elijah "come up hither"?  We don't know because the scripture doesn't say SPECIFICALLY that He did.

There are a lot of things that can be conjectured from Scripture even when the specific passage does not specifically say it.

 

For example, in the case of Abraham inquiring of the Lord concerning the destruction of Sodom, Abraham asks how many

righteous people living in Sodom would it take for the Lord to not destroy the city.  We can deduce from the dialog that

God would remove every righteous person prior to judgement/destruction.  This is "implied" or "deduced" but not specifically written.

So, the question is: how many righteous people will God destroy along with the wicked in the last part of the Tribulation?

Some Christians conjecture that mid-tribulation, those believers will be "removed from the earth" prior to God pouring out his wrath.

[Dr James Ach]

that scripture is to Israel only because God promised all Israel will be saved.  However his word also says the wicked of Israel would be cut of this book you are viewing is concerning Israel no gentiles.

 

Hebrew six is Jews again under the kingdom gospel preached up until the everlasting angelic Gospel to all men is preached.

 

Eph 3:9 in ENGLISH makes no reference to enlightenment that people rejected.  to make all men see what the mystery of being the grace we received salvation at our moment of belief and it is speaking of those in the Body of Christ only.

 

You cannot go to the Greek to change the English ans still claim the KJV is the preserved word of God for today.

So now there's a book for Israelites and a book for Gentiles? Book of life is one book that contains the records of the living. The reference made in Psalm 69 was to ALL of David's enemies, which at the time Psalm 69 was written was mostly GENTILES.

 

If these sinners were never written in the book of life to begin with, then you are espousing to the Calvinist doctrine of preterition. If none were ever written, then that means God predestinated them to hell. And then also, those that were written, were predestinated to heaven. Both of these positions are unbiblical.

 

You also did not answer my question: if only those who are saved are the ones written in this book, then what does that say about them if they can be removed from it?

 

**

And I did not CHANGE the word, it means the same thing in Greek and English:

ENLI'GHTENED, pp. Rendered light; illuminated; instructed; informed; furnished with clear views. Websters 1628

 

If you have seen any my posts on the KJV, I really don't think you'd question if I'd change the wording of the KJV

[ASongOfDegrees]

If they take the mark, they won't repent and won't believe and therefore will go to hell.

True. It will be impossible for them to repent again WITH A GODLY REPENTANCE which I was referring too.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I am not disputing that, John.  What I am saying is that the Mark of the Beast won't happen until Chapter 14 of the Book of Revelation.  The believers will have already been taken out of the world, after Revelation 4.  There is no chance that any born again believer will take the mark.

True. And there will be no eternal security during the Great Tribulation. A saint during that time will have to hold out until Christ's return where he will receive his salvation (Hebrews 9:28; I Peter 1:5). Eternal security was a special promise to the church only through Christ's intercessory of John 17. There is no abiding Comforter during the Tribulation thus no eternal security. Take the mark and you go to hell.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I believe the word of God is talking about the Tribulation saints, Ukelelemike.  I agree with John, that those who have been given the gospel before the "catching away" will not have a chance to be saved.  However, there will be the 144,000 Virgin Jewish Evangelists that will preach the gospel to the lost.  

Agreed.  If we are saved, sealed unto the day of redemption, then we won't have to worry about taking the mark.  I see the Rapture in many verses in the Bible.  I covered this in another thread.  The scriptures talk about a Rapture.  It doesn't say Rapture in the KJV but it is the Rapture of all true born again believers.  

The 144,000 will be the only ones sealed during the Great Tribulation. They are the "man child" of Rev. 12:5,13. The rest of the Jewish believers make up the woman who flees into the wilderness. They have to endure unto the end. All saints will have to keep the testimony and faith of Christ, the commandments of God, love not their lives unto death and not take the mark of the beast to obtain the end of their faith when Christ returns. It's clearly written that way in Revelation. 

 

The only way to avoid this conclusion is to bend the clear reading of the text to our already preconceived ideas of what it should say according to what our denomination or favorite theologian teaches. Usually this is done by changing what the English says with the "original languages".

[ASongOfDegrees]

OK I have not read completely all the posts here.  and of course you know I hold to a different economy at the time of fulfillment of the Book of revelation.  I do not believe any part of this book is fulfilled except for John's completion to write that which he was comanded Rev 1: 19 hast seen, i.e. the gospel according to John, and the things which are i.e. Revelation chapter one, and the things which shall be hereafter i.e. the writing of the whole revelation for the seven churches (there is no record of any of the seven earthly church locations ever received copies of the book of revelation).  I believe these churches are the church in the wilderness (Jews that had been scattered by the defilement of the temple as seen in Daniel).  I know that others don't and that is fine.

 

harpazo is not found any where in the book of revelation except in Revelation 12 concerning the son and I believe that is Jesus Christ ascension.  Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

concerning the 144,000 it is said here Rev 14:3, 4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.  Harpazo is not mentioned here at all in the Greek so if we say this is a harpazo we are adding to the word of God.  the word here for from the earth is "apo" which can mean a departure, or a completion, or a separation.   But no "Caught up"  now what the is it is from the earth and in the next verse is is from among men. However, John is in a heavenly view of the throne in which the 144,000 will be at that time but has not happened yet.  So how they get from being sealed with the name of the father to heaven is a mystery in the book of revelation for it does not say.

 

So scholars assume it is a rapture/harpazo of sorts and connect it with being part of the first resurrection.  except you can only be resurrected if you are dead and not everybody in the body are dead when they are caught up too.  so this theology of being part of the first resurrection and connected to a rapture is a bit faulty.  because the first resurrection is clearly stated in Rev 20:4, 5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  The first resurrection is of dead men who were beheaded for their witness of Christ and the word of God, did not take the mark of the beast nor worshiped it.  this is not anyone prior to the great tribulation nor the 144,000.

 

Could our scholars be a little mistaken on their teaching?  It would seem so. 

 

And why?

 

Failure to rightly divide the word of truth

AV, I agree with you about the seven churches. Spiritually speaking they can be applied to this dispensation but doctrinally they will make up seven churches during the Tribulation. This is important to grasp: They will be churches but they will NOT be part of the church (i.e. the body of Christ). Like you said, they are part of the "church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:42).

 

Also, I would like to add that the "man child" is not Jesus Christ although it is a type/anti-type of Christ. The "man child" caught up to rule with a rod of iron is the saved remnant (most likely the 144,000). So that passage is yet future also.

 

Observe:

 

Isaiah 66

 

[5] Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
[6] A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
[7] Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[8] Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

 

Isaiah 26

 

[15] Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.

[16] LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
[17] Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
[18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
[19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
[20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

Revelation 2

 

[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

As you see from this last passage the saints during the tribulation that overcome will also rule with a "rod of iron". So the "man child" of Rev. 12 doesn't have to be Jesus Christ being caught up to rule with a rod of iron but also the saved remnant.

[ASongOfDegrees]

 

 

true enlightenment comes to those who believe if any reject it, the were never enlightened.

 

 

I agree with Dr. Ach on this one. Hebrews 6 says they have "tasted" of the heavenly gift and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST before going straight to hell just like Judas Iscariot. 

[AVBibleBeliever]

I agree with Dr. Ach on this one. Hebrews 6 says they have "tasted" of the heavenly gift and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST before going straight to hell just like Judas Iscariot. 

that is not the body of Christ.  In Hebrews Israel is under the tribulation economy/dispensation.  In the faith plus works environment you don't get the grace that leads to salvation until the end. That is why you will find lots of enduring and keeping the law in Hebrews and yes someone losing their salvation.

[John81]

All who are born again in Christ, whether today or in the future, are eternally saved. Every born again believer, now or during tribulation, is sealed with the Holy Ghost and eternally saved.

 

There is one means of salvation and that does not change.

[ASongOfDegrees]

that is not the body of Christ.  In Hebrews Israel is under the tribulation economy/dispensation.  In the faith plus works environment you don't get the grace that leads to salvation until the end. That is why you will find lots of enduring and keeping the law in Hebrews and yes someone losing their salvation.

I know it's not the body of Christ. I never said it was and if you know anything about me from this forum you'd know that.

[ASongOfDegrees]

All who are born again in Christ, whether today or in the future, are eternally saved. Every born again believer, now or during tribulation, is sealed with the Holy Ghost and eternally saved.

 

There is one means of salvation and that does not change.

Yes, salvation is only in Christ and ultimately all things will be reconciled in him but nobody in the OT went to heaven when they died and there is no church during the Tribulation. Without the church there is no abiding and sealing Holy Spirit (except for perhaps the 144,000) which was a new ministry of God after the cross (John 14:16-18).