Repent Of The Mark?

[candlelight]

Then who is the Bible speaking of in Rev 13:7 where it says, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."  Who are the 'saints'?  Someone here is saved, either of those who remained after a pre-trib rapture, or the same saints as are here now have not yet gone up.  

 

However, I don't believe ANY saints will tae the mark and worship the beast, because we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, and we cannot be lost. And if one did, I don't believe they could be lost, still, because the rules don't suddenly change here-once saved, always saved. So wither we cannot take it, or we won't take it. And I do believe the saints will remain on earth during the tribulation, but be removed prior to the outpouring of God's wrath. The only place I can clearly see any sort of rapture of God's people is in Rev 14:14-16, which takes place immediately prior to the poutpouring of the wrath of God.

 

I believe the word of God is talking about the Tribulation saints, Ukelelemike.  I agree with John, that those who have been given the gospel before the "catching away" will not have a chance to be saved.  However, there will be the 144,000 Virgin Jewish Evangelists that will preach the gospel to the lost.  

Agreed.  If we are saved, sealed unto the day of redemption, then we won't have to worry about taking the mark.  I see the Rapture in many verses in the Bible.  I covered this in another thread.  The scriptures talk about a Rapture.  It doesn't say Rapture in the KJV but it is the Rapture of all true born again believers.  

[Invicta]

If they take the mark, they won't repent and won't believe and therefore will go to hell.

 

The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin, or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and that sin is to His ministry of convincing sinners that Christ is the Saviour.

[candlelight]

I re-copied the post that talks about the scriptures of the "Rapture."  For some reason, my laptop went goofy when I attempted to copy and paste what I had written before.  I was too tired yesterday to re-copy.  I also put in a couple of other scriptures, as well.  If I missed anything, for those who believe in the "Rapture", please bring it to my attention.  Thank you.  

We know the word "Rapture" does not appear in the KJV.  It comes from the Latin word, "repare" which means to "seize", "snatch" or "take away".  The term "Rapture" is used to describe the saints being taken up to meet Christ in the air.  I have not studied this for several years.  Regardless, of comments made by John that people get information from the books and movies like "Left Behind" and other stories of this type, is further from the truth in my posts.  I got these scriptures from the KJV, which I rely among over the words of man.  The KJV is my source.  Hopefully, this will be easier to read.  So much for re-copying.  Sorry about the size of the fonts in these scriptures.  However, you do get my point.  

 

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:13
 
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:14

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:15

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" ~ 1Thessalonians 4:16

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:17
 

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," ~ 1Corinthians 15:51

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ~ 1Corinthians 15:52

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering unto him," ~ II Thessalonians 2:1

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." ~ II Thessalonians 2:2

 

"Let no man deceive you by any means:   for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" ~  II Thessalonians 2:3
 

 

Born Again Believers will escape 21 judgments.  

"In am moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ~ I Corinthians 15:54

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" ~ I Titus 2:13

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:  but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him like he is." ~ I John 3:2

"Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him:  and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.  Even so, A-men." ~ Revelation 1:7

"AFTER  this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven:  and the first voice I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hearafter (in the future)." ~ Revelation 4:1

[Ukulelemike]

I re-copied the post that talks about the scriptures of the "Rapture."  For some reason, my laptop went goofy when I attempted to copy and paste what I had written before.  I was too tired yesterday to re-copy.  I also put in a couple of other scriptures, as well.  If I missed anything, for those who believe in the "Rapture", please bring it to my attention.  Thank you.  

We know the word "Rapture" does not appear in the KJV.  It comes from the Latin word, "repare" which means to "seize", "snatch" or "take away".  The term "Rapture" is used to describe the saints being taken up to meet Christ in the air.  I have not studied this for several years.  Regardless, of comments made by John that people get information from the books and movies like "Left Behind" and other stories of this type, is further from the truth in my posts.  I got these scriptures from the KJV, which I rely among over the words of man.  The KJV is my source.  Hopefully, this will be easier to read.  So much for re-copying.  Sorry about the size of the fonts in these scriptures.  However, you do get my point.  

 

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:13
 
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:14

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:15

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" ~ 1Thessalonians 4:16

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ 1Thessalonians 4:17
 

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," ~ 1Corinthians 15:51

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ~ 1Corinthians 15:52

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering unto him," ~ II Thessalonians 2:1

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." ~ II Thessalonians 2:2

 

"Let no man deceive you by any means:   for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" ~  II Thessalonians 2:3
 

 

Born Again Believers will escape 21 judgments.  

"In am moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ~ I Corinthians 15:54

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" ~ I Titus 2:13

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:  but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him like he is." ~ I John 3:2

"Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him:  and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.  Even so, A-men." ~ Revelation 1:7

"AFTER  this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven:  and the first voice I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hearafter (in the future)." ~ Revelation 4:1

With the exception of the last verse, none of these speak of the rapture actually occurring, just its surety, which I agree with. As for the last, it is clearly referring only to John's experience, not a rapture of the entire church-It is directed to John alone, and the reason is not a rapture, but a removal in spirit for the purpose of the revelation vision-no different than when Ezekiel or Isaiah were brought to heaven for revelatory purposes.

 

The only passage in the entire Bible that shows I believe very clearly a removal, a harvest, by Jesus Christ, which is, by the way, one of the ways it is referred to in Matthew a couple times, is Rev 14:14-17. Otherwise, are we to believe the idea that the initial rapture of the church is hidden in obsucre language, while some second rapture of the tribulation saints is clearly spoken of? Are there then, two raptures?

[candlelight]

With the exception of the last verse, none of these speak of the rapture actually occurring, just its surety, which I agree with. As for the last, it is clearly referring only to John's experience, not a rapture of the entire church-It is directed to John alone, and the reason is not a rapture, but a removal in spirit for the purpose of the revelation vision-no different than when Ezekiel or Isaiah were brought to heaven for revelatory purposes.

 

The only passage in the entire Bible that shows I believe very clearly a removal, a harvest, by Jesus Christ, which is, by the way, one of the ways it is referred to in Matthew a couple times, is Rev 14:14-17. Otherwise, are we to believe the idea that the initial rapture of the church is hidden in obsucre language, while some second rapture of the tribulation saints is clearly spoken of? Are there then, two raptures?

 

Well, at least you have one verse to look at.    I would like to hear your rationale for not believing in a Rapture, ukelelemike.

[beameup]

  Are there then, two raptures?

Some Christians believe there are.  The first is pre-tribulation, and is the removal, from the earth, of the Body of Christ.

The second is the removal of those saved by the efforts of the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists preaching the Kingdom Gospel

during the first half of the Tribulation; and that second harpazo occurs when the "two witnesses" are taken up to Heaven.

Then, "all hell breaks loose" on the earth for the last 3 1/2 years, culminating in Jesus returning to the earth to set-up his Kingdom.

[AVBibleBeliever]

OK I have not read completely all the posts here.  and of course you know I hold to a different economy at the time of fulfillment of the Book of revelation.  I do not believe any part of this book is fulfilled except for John's completion to write that which he was comanded Rev 1: 19 hast seen, i.e. the gospel according to John, and the things which are i.e. Revelation chapter one, and the things which shall be hereafter i.e. the writing of the whole revelation for the seven churches (there is no record of any of the seven earthly church locations ever received copies of the book of revelation).  I believe these churches are the church in the wilderness (Jews that had been scattered by the defilement of the temple as seen in Daniel).  I know that others don't and that is fine.

 

harpazo is not found any where in the book of revelation except in Revelation 12 concerning the son and I believe that is Jesus Christ ascension.  Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

concerning the 144,000 it is said here Rev 14:3, 4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.  Harpazo is not mentioned here at all in the Greek so if we say this is a harpazo we are adding to the word of God.  the word here for from the earth is "apo" which can mean a departure, or a completion, or a separation.   But no "Caught up"  now what the is it is from the earth and in the next verse is is from among men. However, John is in a heavenly view of the throne in which the 144,000 will be at that time but has not happened yet.  So how they get from being sealed with the name of the father to heaven is a mystery in the book of revelation for it does not say.

 

So scholars assume it is a rapture/harpazo of sorts and connect it with being part of the first resurrection.  except you can only be resurrected if you are dead and not everybody in the body are dead when they are caught up too.  so this theology of being part of the first resurrection and connected to a rapture is a bit faulty.  because the first resurrection is clearly stated in Rev 20:4, 5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  The first resurrection is of dead men who were beheaded for their witness of Christ and the word of God, did not take the mark of the beast nor worshiped it.  this is not anyone prior to the great tribulation nor the 144,000.

 

Could our scholars be a little mistaken on their teaching?  It would seem so. 

 

And why?

 

Failure to rightly divide the word of truth

[Ukulelemike]

Well, at least you have one verse to look at.    I would like to hear your rationale for not believing in a Rapture, ukelelemike.

notice please, the very first line of my post, particularly the bold part:

 

    "With the exception of the last verse, none of these speak of the rapture actually occurring, just its surety, which I agree with."

 

I absolutely believe there will be a rapture, or removal of the saints. I just don't believe that it will take place prior to the great tribulation period, but near the end, just prior to the outpouring of God's wrath, which begins in Rev 14:18-20. I believe the rapture takes place in Rev 14:14-17. I see no other event in scripture that so clearly describes a removal of the harvest of the earth by Jesus Christ. The event of John's trip to heaven describes HIS visit for the giving of the revelation, not of the church being brought up, though I have heard the argument-its a very weak argument, based on a notion found nowhere in scriptuire, that the church will be removed before the tribulation.

 

The reality of the rapture I agree with, just not the timing. No scripture anywhere tells us that we will miss the tribulation.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Some who many think are part of the rapture / first resurrection,  the two witness of Rev 11, the 144,000 and some men who died for their witness during th e7 years of God's wrath.

[Ukulelemike]

OK I have not read completely all the posts here.  and of course you know I hold to a different economy at the time of fulfillment of the Book of revelation.  I do not believe any part of this book is fulfilled except for John's completion to write that which he was comanded Rev 1: 19 hast seen, and, r i.e. the gospel according to John and the things which are i.e. Revelation chapter one, and and the things which shall be hereafter i.e. the writing of the whole revelation for the seven churches (there is no record of any of the seven earthly church locations ever received copies of the book of revelation).  I believe these churches are the church in the wilderness (Jews that had been scattered by the defilement of the temple as seen in Daniel).  I know that others don't and that is fine.

 

harpazo is not found any where except in Revelation 12 concerning the son and I believe that is Jesus Christ ascension.  Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

concerning the 144,000 it is said here Rev 14:3, 4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.  Harpazo is not mentioned here at all in the Greek so if we say this is a harpazo we are adding to the word of God.  the word here for from the earth is "apo" which can mean a departure, or a completion, or a separation.   But no "Caught up"  now what the is it is from the earth and in the next verse is is from among men. However, John is in a heavenly view of the throne in which the 144,000 will be at that time but has not happened yet.  So how they get from being sealed with the name of the father to heaven is a mystery in the book of revelation for it does not say.

 

So scholars assume it is a rapture/harpazo of sorts and connect it with being part of the first resurrection.  except you can only be resurrected if you are dead and not everybody in the body are dead when they are caught up too.  so this theology of being part of the first resurrection and connected to a rapture is a bit faulty.  because the first resurrection is clearly stated in Rev 20:4, 5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  The first resurrection is of dead men who were beheaded for their witness of Christ and the word of God, did not take the mark of the beast nor worshiped it.  this is not anyone prior to the great tribulation nor the 144,000.

 

Could our scholars be a little mistaken on their teaching?  It would seem so. 

 

And why?

 

Failure to rightly divide the word of truth

Strong's shows harpazo used 13 times in scripture. Including in 1Thes 4:17.

 

In Rev 20, speaking of the first resurrection, I think you miss something here. The saved of all times must be included in the 1st resurrection, because it is said that those of this resurrection are not under the power of death. Does that mean, then, that wemight be found, though saved, lost? Will we the redeemed of Christ, share in the resurrection of the damned, as well, who will be resurrected prior to their judgment? Just because those who came through the great tribulation are specifically mentioned doesn't mean those before that time who died as believers won't share in that resurrection.

[AVBibleBeliever]

notice please, the very first line of my post, particularly the bold part:

 

    "With the exception of the last verse, none of these speak of the rapture actually occurring, just its surety, which I agree with."

 

I absolutely believe there will be a rapture, or removal of the saints. I just don't believe that it will take place prior to the great tribulation period, but near the end, just prior to the outpouring of God's wrath, which begins in Rev 14:18-20. I believe the rapture takes place in Rev 14:14-17. I see no other event in scripture that so clearly describes a removal of the harvest of the earth by Jesus Christ. The event of John's trip to heaven describes HIS visit for the giving of the revelation, not of the church being brought up, though I have heard the argument-its a very weak argument, based on a notion found nowhere in scriptuire, that the church will be removed before the tribulation.

 

The reality of the rapture I agree with, just not the timing. No scripture anywhere tells us that we will miss the tribulation.

UKU, you have every right to believe what you do.  even if I don't agree I will not argue about it with you.  I have a friend who holds a preterist view, he believes the most of the book of revelation has already taken place and that is why he has the church in the tribulation. How or why is beyond me.

 

but the scriptures are clear we are saved from the wrath of which the tribulation is God's wrath on Israel and unbelieving mankind.

 

 Roms 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

This speaks of both the tribulation and the lake of fire
 

[AVBibleBeliever]

Strong's shows harpazo used 13 times in scripture. Including in 1Thes 4:17.

 

In Rev 20, speaking of the first resurrection, I think you miss something here. The saved of all times must be included in the 1st resurrection, because it is said that those of this resurrection are not under the power of death. Does that mean, then, that wemight be found, though saved, lost? Will we the redeemed of Christ, share in the resurrection of the damned, as well, who will be resurrected prior to their judgment? Just because those who came through the great tribulation are specifically mentioned doesn't mean those before that time who died as believers won't share in that resurrection.

my appologies I meant not found anywhere in revelation except in chapter 11.

 

did you not read the whole post?

[Ukulelemike]

UKU, you have every right to believe what you do.  even if I don't agree I will not argue about it with you.  I have a friend who holds a preterist view, he believes the most of the book of revelation has already taken place and that is why he has the church in the tribulation. How or why is beyond me.

 

but the scriptures are clear we are saved from the wrath of which the tribulation is God's wrath on Israel and unbelieving mankind.

 

 Roms 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

This speaks of both the tribulation and the lake of fire
 

Actually, Revelation gives a clear dilineation between the tribulation and the falling of wrath-they are not one and the same. Hence why there are seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials of wrath. That's why in Rev 14: 18 we see very specifically God's wrath being poured out. That's why we see Christ reaping the harvest of the earth immediately prior to it.  we are saved from wrath, but we are promised tribulation.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Actually, Revelation gives a clear dilineation between the tribulation and the falling of wrath-they are not one and the same. Hence why there are seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials of wrath. That's why in Rev 14: 18 we see very specifically God's wrath being poured out. That's why we see Christ reaping the harvest of the earth immediately prior to it.  we are saved from wrath, but we are promised tribulation.

don't forget the three woes.

 

I believe the whole of the book of revelation is concerning the great tribulation which all the wrath of God and many a IFB pastors and theologians would agree with me on that.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I admit that Revelation is a difficult book to understand.

 

In my economic view of it I divide it by looking to where John is when he receives the book.  Some of it is from the earth, and some of it is from heaven place the scriptures in two categories. 

 

then we see him taken further past the kingdom (the Kingdom age is not found there except to say those of the first resurrection will live and reign a thousand years with him), divide that section and place it is a separate category.

 

now you should have three categories of scriptures.

 

read each category in it separate sections.  Jot down your observations for each category of scriptures and it should help you better understand the book of Revelation.

 

Again rightly dividing is the key in that book too.