United Church Of God

[DaveW]

But it doesn't say they aren't in heaven (the context indicates they are), just that they are written in heaven - the two are not mutually exclusive.

All the other things mentioned in these two verses are in heaven - why would the church mentioned here not be?

[Left the Bldg]

I still don't have an answer to Matthew 16:18,

[DaveW]

I still don't have an answer to Matthew 16:18,

Previous page to this it was discussed to some extent.

[Left the Bldg]

Previous page to this it was discussed to some extent.

Is this the answer?

 

Matthew :
It is the generic usage not particular usage.
Similar to "The car has had a huge impact on our society". 
A particular car? No. A universal car? No.
The car generically.

 

So the word "church" in Matthew 16:18 is used generically when all along you've been saying that the word "church" is generally used in a local context?

[No Nicolaitans]

But it doesn't say they aren't in heaven (the context indicates they are), just that they are written in heaven - the two are not mutually exclusive.

All the other things mentioned in these two verses are in heaven - why would the church mentioned here not be?

 

No, the context is that the writer of Hebrews is addressing actual living people on earth.  Look at verse 18...

 

Hebrews 12:18

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

 

now, verse 22...

 

Hebrews 12:22

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

Believers on earth are being addressed...not people in heaven.  As is true with all believers, the "things" mentioned in verses 22-24 are the Hebrew believers' inheritance...a stark contrast to what the law gave.  Part of this inheritance is that they are now part of the general assembly and church of the firstborn.

[No Nicolaitans]

Bro. Dave, I'm going to stop posting here now.  I'm starting to get into a debate mode, and I don't want to do that.  That's why I left Online Baptist before.  If I've offended you, please forgive me.

[candlelight]

Bro. Dave, I'm going to stop posting here now.  I'm starting to get into a debate mode, and I don't want to do that.  That's why I left Online Baptist before.  If I've offended you, please forgive me.

I have been following this thread.  Interesting.  Great thoughts and answers. 

I agree with No Nicolaitans.  I don't like to debate with my brothers and sisters in Christ, either.  I left OB before, b/c of this same thing.  Thanks for reminding me of that, NN:)

[Ukulelemike]

Hebrews: where is this church spoken of?


 22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So then let me ask in light of that - is this church a local assembly?
Yes it is - all assembled in one place - it is just huge - the biggest Mega church ever.

Matthew :
It is the generic usage not particular usage.
Similar to "The car has had a huge impact on our society".
A particular car? No. A universal car? No.
The car generically.

While you are free to disagree with those, there is certainly AT BEST doubtful meaning to the Matthew passage, not clear teaching.
The generic usage fits with the overwhelming majority of usage, therefore it is the most likely understanding.

See, now you're just being ornery-Hebrews is describing an general assembly-ALL believers. THIS would be the universal church. Not a local assembly, but a general assembly-all believers.

 

But I'm not surprised you reject such a clear scripture, since you stated you didn't want to see it.

[Left the Bldg]

I am going to write one more post on this subject and then be done.  Take it or leave it.

 

When Paul writes Colossians the salutation is to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse.  They didn't have church buildings the way we do now.  They met in homes.

 

In Corinthians it is addressed to the church of God.

 

Thessalonians...unto the church of the Thessalonians.

 

As believers, we are referred to by different names in the Bible.  The elect, the bride of christ, church, body, judges, children, kings, temple, members, servants and soldier...just to name a few.

 

The "church" is a living organism comprised of all believers.  Why do I believe this?  Because that's who Jesus is coming back for. Believers.  Not Elm Dale Church on North Ave. or whatever name.

 

1 Cor 12 deals with the diversity of gifts.  Are we supposed to only use those gifts in the local church?  Can I edify or teach a fellow believer who does not belong to my local church?

 

1 Cor 12:20 But now are they many members, but one body.  Jesus is the head of the body.  Are the members referred to here members of a local church?  Or members (limbs) of a body?  Not all members of a local church can be part of the body if they are not believers.   

 

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious "church," not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 

 

It the word "church" or "body" represents only a local organization, I would like someone to point me to a local church that is without having a spot, wrinkle or blemish.  Especially, when there may be possible false doctrine, disunity, or unbelievers present.

 

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

Who does Christ save and who is he the head of?  The believer.  If "Fred" who sits next to me in church is not a believer and he's only going because his wife makes him or he thinks it will win him brownie points with God, Christ is NOT the head of "Fred" nor is Christ is saviour.

 

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

Who did Christ give himself for?  The church.  Which church?  If he was referring to an organization, he would have said churches.  And wait a minute.  What about Fred?  He doesn't believe, even though he sits next to me in church. 

 

What about Sally who rarely goes to church because she lives out in the boondocks.

 

The end.

 

By the way, Fred and Sally are fictionalized characters.  :-)