Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

You read it again.  I have read it over and over and nowhere does it say He was drinking alcohol.

You have to add to the Word of God to put alcohol in the Lord's hand.

[Heir of Salvation]

You read it again.  I have read it over and over and nowhere does it say He was drinking alcohol.

You have to add to the Word of God to put alcohol in the Lord's hand.

Jesus meant that he was drinking alcohol.  Not in excess, as he never did, but it does mean that he partook as basically everyone else did in that society.  John (being a Nazarite) had taken a total abstinence vow and would not have.  Jesus was not, however, a Nazarite and would have no need to. 

 

To assume that when Jesus said he came "eating and drinking" means he came drinking Welch's would frankly being a case of "special pleading" and rather absurd.  Unless one came to that passage assuming a postition of tee-totalism no normal person would think for a second that Jesus was not claiming that he drank alcohol.  That's not a problem, as it is not a sin to do so.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Nope... the word alcohol isn't there. 

The fact:  Jesus said He came eating and drinking.
The lie:  Jesus said He came eating and drinking alcohol.

The disobedient has to add the word "alcohol" to Matthew 11:19, so that he can justify the drinking of that poison that Solomon said not even to look upon. 

The deceived has to add the word "alcohol" to Matthew 11:19, so that he can justify the drinking of that  beverage that causes one to forget the law and to pervert the judgment of the afflicted.

The dishonest has to add the word "alcohol" to Matthew 11:19, so that he can justify the drinking of that liquid that the Word of God reveals takes men down the road to destruction.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jesus meant that he was drinking alcohol.  Not in excess, as he never did, but it does mean that he partook as basically everyone else did in that society.  John (being a Nazarite) had taken a total abstinence vow and would not have.  Jesus was not, however, a Nazarite and would have no need to. 

 

To assume that when Jesus said he came "eating and drinking" means he came drinking Welch's would frankly being a case of "special pleading" and rather absurd.  Unless one came to that passage assuming a postition of tee-totalism no normal person would think for a second that Jesus was not claiming that he drank alcohol.  That's not a problem, as it is not a sin to do so.

Jesus meant alcohol?  Where does the Bible say He meant alcohol?  

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jesus came to fulfill the Law.  He would not have drank alcohol, lest he forget the Law.

You need to put that bottle down and pick up the Word of God more often.  You fail miserably at teaching what it says.

[Heir of Salvation]

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Nope... the word alcohol isn't there. 

The fact:  Jesus said He came eating and drinking.
The lie:  Jesus said He came eating and drinking alcohol.

The disobedient has to add the word "alcohol" to Matthew 11:19, so that he can justify the drinking of that poison that Solomon said not even to look upon. 

The deceived has to add the word "alcohol" to Matthew 11:19, so that he can justify the drinking of that  beverage that causes one to forget the law and to pervert the judgment of the afflicted.

The dishonest has to add the word "alcohol" to Matthew 11:19, so that he can justify the drinking of that liquid that the Word of God reveals takes men down the road to destruction.

In order for your position to be consistent you must then believe that in verse 18...Jesus was using a different definition for "drinking" with reference to John the Baptist than he was using for himself...see it again:

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

In order for your position to be accurate you are forced to take this parrallel statement and assert either 1 of these two available options:

1.) Jesus said that John ate absolutely no food whatsoever at any time (which I assume must include locusts and honey as well) and that he did not ever even drink water or any non-alcoholic beverage or fruit whatsoever.

or

2.) Jesus' definition of "eating and drinking" with reference to John is different than the definition he uses in the very next obviously parrallel statement in reference to himself in verse 19 despite the fact that the text uses precisely the same word for each case.

 

I would like to ask which position you espouse?

 

If I refuse to adopt either of those two absurd notions (and there are no other available options I can think of)  than I am forced to conclude that when Jesus said he came "eating and drinking", that that is what he meant.  No one has to "put a cup into his hand"...he was quite capable of doing it himself thankyaverymuch, and it was well within his purview to do so.

[Heir of Salvation]

Jesus came to fulfill the Law.  He would not have drank alcohol, lest he forget the Law.

You need to put that bottle down and pick up the Word of God more often.  You fail miserably at teaching what it says.

The Law did not forbid drinking of alcohol....in point of fact, I have already shown you from the Pentateuch where specific instructions were given for the purchase and consumption of alcohol within the Torah, in a verse which I happen to know you are quite familiar with. 

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jesus' statement that He came eating and drinking was not saying He drank alcoholic drinks. 

He was contrasting His lifestyle with that of John the Baptist. 

John came neither eating or drinking and they said John had a devil.
Jesus came eating and drinking and they accused Him of being a glutton and a winebibber.

What was John not drinking?  John was a Nazarite and as a Nazarite, he could partake of nothing that came from the vine.  This would include the wine that is found IN THE CLUSTER.

I know this is hard for you to grasp, HoS, but grape juice was called wine in Jesus' day.  John did not drink grape juice and they accused him of having a devil. 

There is more evidence that what Jesus drank was not alcoholic than you want to learn.  You are so dead set on justifying the consumption of alcohol that you are willing to imitate the Pharisees and accuse Jesus of drinking it.  After all, if you can reason out that Jesus drank that vile beverage, you can justify your sin.

But wisdom is justified of all her children.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The Law did not forbid drinking of alcohol....in point of fact, I have already shown you from the Pentateuch where specific instructions were given for the purchase and consumption of alcohol within the Torah, in a verse which I happen to know you are quite familiar with. 

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

yayin and shekar were generic words, HoS. 

You keep overlooking the fact that Moses and his brethren were not living in the 21st Century A.D..

Think about it.  Why would God tell Moses to buy and consume alcohol when He told Solomon not even to look upon alcoholic beverages?  Your theory doesn't hold up when Scripture is interpreted with Scripture.

[Heir of Salvation]

Jesus' statement that He came eating and drinking was not saying He drank alcoholic drinks. 

He was contrasting His lifestyle with that of John the Baptist. 

John came neither eating or drinking and they said John had a devil.
Jesus came eating and drinking and they accused Him of being a glutton and a winebibber.

What was John not drinking?  John was a Nazarite and as a Nazarite, he could partake of nothing that came from the vine.  This would include the wine that is found IN THE CLUSTER.

I know this is hard for you to grasp, HoS, but grape juice was called wine in Jesus' day.  John did not drink grape juice and they accused him of having a devil. 

There is more evidence that what Jesus drank was not alcoholic than you want to learn.  You are so dead set on justifying the consumption of alcohol that you are willing to imitate the Pharisees and accuse Jesus of drinking it.  After all, if you can reason out that Jesus drank that vile beverage, you can justify your sin.

But wisdom is justified of all her children.

I do not drink......

I am not surprised that you immediately assumed as much and launched your accusations.  I do not drink because I am on staff at a church which disavows it.

 

I do not consider anyone who would make such assumptions about someone and then launch into a deranged tyrade against them demanding they repent of a non-sin which they don't even participate in to be a  reasonable person to debate such topics with.  Then again....I do not consider most I.F.B. teetotallers to be reasonable people.  That is a general assumption that I make.  However, you have proven me correct in that assumption.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Sure, sure. 

And I don't eat bologna sandwiches.

 

Right.

Why does your Church disavow alcohol if, as you claim, Jesus drank it? 

You are a riot.

[Heir of Salvation]

I know this is hard for you to grasp, HoS, but grape juice was called wine in Jesus' day.  John did not drink grape juice and they accused him of having a devil. 
 

Nothing you have argued is "hard to grasp"....wrong, yes.  But decidedly not beyond my ken while resting well within yours.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Actually, it is you who is wrong.

I have given Scripture that clearly shows abstinence is to be observed.

[Heir of Salvation]

Sure, sure. 

And I don't eat bologna sandwiches.

 

Right.

Why does your Church disavow alcohol if, as you claim, Jesus drank it? 

You are a riot.

Many churches do....it is a rare church which does not.  It so happens that I do not agree with everything believed by all people there.  It is a part of their Constitution which was admittedly written about 55 years ago, and many of the folk are not tee-totallers there.  But, as it is...I respect what it says.  That is not in the least bit uncommon.  My best friend is the same way.  He ceased drinking because he went to SEBTS, which calls for it's students not to drink........He knows better than to believe that that is a Scriptural command, but he knows to keep what he considers to be a vow not to drink while he is a student there.  He also now attends a different Church which dissavows alcohol.  He doesn't agree with them, but if that is hard for you to believe, I suggest you get out more. 

 

It's quite common for people to abstain for the sake of others' hang-ups..(even if they are mistaken hang-ups)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

No hang up here.  I stand on the truth written in the Word.

It is obvious you have the hang up.  Whether trying to justify your own drinking, LotV's drinking, or some other family member's drinking... you are wrong nonetheless.

The Word of God does teach abstinence from alcohol (Proverbs 23:31; Proverbs 31:4-5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8)

You reject the clear instruction to abstain and embrace a lie that has deceived so many and caused them to die in their sin without Christ.