All Preachers Should Have A Conceal Weapon Permit

[Critical Mass]

On 11/20/2015, 4:57:08, Alimantado said:

Whatever the figures, it's obvious that UK is a violent and criminal country. Every day, people are beaten up, mugged, raped and murdered. And that leaves out domestic violence: spousal abuse, child abuse etc, which are the most common forms of violence of all.

A few things I think about the whole gun debate: firstly I think it's much harder to compare crime rates than just taking each country's own figures, adjusting for population size and putting them side-by-side. Doing that doesn't take into account the possibility of different reporting rates, different definitions of crime (e.g. violent crime) and demographic factors such as urban/rural environment. For example, I can't see how you can come up with meaningful figures by lumping Greater London in with the Scottish Highlands, and ditto for rural vs. city states in USA.

Secondly, firearm controls aren't necessarily just about whether it can be made harder for organised criminals to get guns (I agree that probably doesn't work). A lot of crime is a result of weak minds and escalating circumstances and so there is the question of whether more guns means more people using them in moments of weakness. Of course, this gets into the whole nanny state debate...

Apparently, fatal shootings by police in the USA are off the scale compared to UK (and yes I'm now using figures myself!). In England and Wales, the police shoot dead about 0-6 people per year (so that includes London, but not Northern Ireland!) whereas in US it's over 1,000 a year. UK police don't carry firearms but they can call on them quickly if needed, so why such a huge difference, even accounting for population?

I remember hearing about a case in the US where a young lady was at home alone with her new born baby--her husband had recently died. Someone began breaking down her door, so she got a shot gun and stood behind the door, shouting that if the assailant got in she would shoot. As soon as the door opened, she fired and killed the person. She said afterwards that she thought it better to kill the person than risk having him kill her child and the authorities backed her. I don't see how anyone can argue from a secular standpoint that it would have been better if she hadn't had a gun. And as for what the Lord calls us to do, I struggle to see what the scenario has to do with the call to love our enemies. This wasn't a case of a women getting revenge on an enemy, or setting out to destroy an enemy. To me it's more akin to pulling one's child out of the way of an oncoming vehicle. And if we still say that she should have put the gun away and trusted the Lord to save her via a more direct means if it was His will, how can we justify growing crops or holding down a job instead of relying on the Lord to provide our all our needs directly?

Long ramble--apologies...

 

I agree with your last paragraph.

I wonder if the long distances away from law enforcement is a reason for higher crimes rates. Or in the city it could be the inability of police to respond quickly because of other calls they may be dealing with. Just a thought. I remember a State Trooper who I knew from church telling me that on Saturday nights it would take him sometimes 45 minutes to get to a call because of the distance and lack of manpower. This is another reason why a person needs to own a gun in my opinion. You can't depend on the police to be there to help.

 

On 11/19/2015, 10:35:26, Colin Stolzer said:

These figures are a couple years old because I wasn't able to find any newer ones from the UK.

The Government's latest crime figures were condemned as "truly terrible" by the Tories today as it emerged that gun crime in England and Wales soared by 35% last year.

Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed.

Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362.

It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993.

Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

Unadjusted figures showed overall recorded crime in the 12 months to last September rose 9.3%, but the Home Office stressed that new procedures had skewed the figures.

Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin said: "These figures are truly terrible.

"Despite the street crime initiative, robbery is massively up. So are gun-related crimes, domestic burglary, retail burglary, and drug offenses.
 

While crime in the U.S. has been steadily going down with the exception of a couple of major U.S. cities that have the strictest gun regulations. While gun ownership has been steadily increasing in the last 6 years.

Invicta,

I think you might be a little niave about the safety of living in a gun free culture...criminals will always have access to firearms because they don't care what the law says, only law abiding people are restricted/constrained by gun laws.

Yes, the crime rate has increased in England after gun control. I think some of it has to do with the increase of immigration to a nation because of the formation of new gangs by immigrants. 

Edited November 21, 2015 by Critical Mass

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, Critical Mass said:

What about Charl Van Wyk? He was able to save his whole church from being wiped out  by four men with grenades and assault rifles and all he had a was just a .38 pistol.

They must have been very slow attackers.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Invicta
Spelling

[Critical Mass]

7 minutes ago, Invicta said:

They must have been very slow attackers.

ha ha ha...What? They raced in by a car. Ambushed the church with hand grenades and assault rifles. Killed 11 and wounded 58. Were finally driven off by a man with a small gun. Then raced away in their car. Not too slow I would think.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Critical Mass

[heartstrings]

Invicta,

Without the one guy with the handgun putting a stop to it, the churchfolk were like fish in a barrel. Good for him.

God even gave PREY animals something to defend themselves with, but you think people should not have the same?. Horns make nice weapons...observe........... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx2-WiPXboI

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2015 by heartstrings

[Invicta]

There was the case recently when two US servicemen or ex servicemen and a British businessman overpowered a gunman on a metro train. 

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, Critical Mass said:

I agree with your last paragraph.

I wonder if the long distances away from law enforcement is a reason for higher crimes rates. Or in the city it could be the inability of police to respond quickly because of other calls they may be dealing with. Just a thought. I remember a State Trooper who I knew from church telling me that on Saturday nights it would take him sometimes 45 minutes to get to a call because of the distance and lack of manpower. This is another reason why a person needs to own a gun in my opinion. You can't depend on the police to be there to help.

 

Yes, the crime rate has increased in England after gun control. I think some of it has to do with the increase of immigration to a nation because of the formation of new gangs by immigrants. 

WE have always had gun control.  Gun crime  is relatively low.  I worked all my life in central London. I only know of one gun incident in the area.  One young lady from the office came back from lunch one day and said she saw a man running down Warren Street with another chasing him,  The first man was turning firing at the man chasing him,  The young lady looked around for cameras as there are often film crews in the area, but could see none.  She kept saying "I don't know it was real or not."   

Later in the afternoon we got the evening paper, The Evening Standard, and there was a report on the case.  A man had tried to rob a store mut was chased out.  The man ran to Great Portland Street Tube Station, down on to the platform where a train had just arrived and ran in. The chaser went straight to the driver and asked him to shut the doors and stay in the station till the police arrived.  They did shortly and the man was arrested.

[wretched]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

There was the case recently when two US servicemen or ex servicemen and a British businessman overpowered a gunman on a metro train. 

I used to be able to do things like this when I was 185 lbs of solid steel and curb appeal.

Unfortunately now I am 210 lbs of chewed bubble gum with a jello center

[Invicta]

4 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

I agree with your last paragraph.

I wonder if the long distances away from law enforcement is a reason for higher crimes rates. Or in the city it could be the inability of police to respond quickly because of other calls they may be dealing with. Just a thought. I remember a State Trooper who I knew from church telling me that on Saturday nights it would take him sometimes 45 minutes to get to a call because of the distance and lack of manpower. This is another reason why a person needs to own a gun in my opinion. You can't depend on the police to be there to help.

 

Yes, the crime rate has increased in England after gun control. I think some of it has to do with the increase of immigration to a nation because of the formation of new gangs by immigrants. 

WE have always had gun control.  Gun crime  is relatively low.  I worked all my life in central London. I only know of one gun incident in the area.  One young lady from the office came back from lunch one day and said she saw a man running down Warren Street with another chasing him,  The first man was turning firing at the man chasing him,  The young lady looked around for cameras as there are often film crews in the area, but could see none.  She kept saying "I don't know it was real or not."   

Later in the afternoon we got the evening paper, The Evening Standard, and there was a report on the case.  A man had tried to rob a store mut was chased out.  The man ran to Great Portland Street Tube Station, down on to the platform where a train had just arrived and ran in. The chaser went straight to the driver and asked him to shut the doors and stay in the station till the police arrived.  They did shortly and the man was arrested.

[Invicta]

I have just been speaking on Skype to my granddaughter  who is doing an au pair job in Paris, There are a lot of au pair vacancies coming up as many girls, mainly Americans are going home following the terrorist attacks.

 

[Invicta]

I said to Rachel that there was a thread on OB called:   All Preachers Should Have A Conceal Weapon Permit.

She said in amazement   "WHAT?"

[Critical Mass]

On 11/21/2015, 6:20:03, Invicta said:

WE have always had gun control.  Gun crime  is relatively low.  

True, it was a slow erosion of a right since 1920. But since 1997 when all guns where confiscated (except for some antique guns I believe) crime rate has gone up in England. A lot of this may have happened regardless since increase in crime rate correlates with increase in immigration because of the formation of new gangs. 

[Alimantado]

54 minutes ago, Critical Mass said:

True, it was a slow erosion of a right since 1920. But since 1997 when all guns where confiscated (except for some antique guns I believe) crime rate has gone up in England. A lot of this may have happened regardless since increase in crime rate correlates with increase in immigration because of the formation of new gangs. 

I'm gonna have to have an in-depth look at the stats one of these days because this is the second time I've heard it mentioned on here that crime rates are up in the UK and yet for about the past eight years all we've been hearing in UK media is that crime rates have been falling. The government have been using the crime figures as a justification for slashing police budgets since 2008, and you would've thought that if the figures were so easily refutable then the opposition party would be beating the government over the head with the real figures, rather than trying to oppose the measures by talking about future risks.

[Critical Mass]

11 minutes ago, Alimantado said:

I'm gonna have to have an in-depth look at the stats one of these days because this is the second time I've heard it mentioned on here that crime rates are up in the UK and yet for about the past eight years all we've been hearing in UK media is that crime rates have been falling. The government have been using the crime figures as a justification for slashing police budgets since 2008, and you would've thought that if the figures were so easily refutable then the opposition party would be beating the government over the head with the real figures, rather than trying to oppose the measures by talking about future risks.

I've been reading that it's up. I will say that in America the crime statistics have been showing that crime is going down BUT it turns out that some of it has to do with how crime is reported to the FBI. Apparently, if a man commits three crimes at one time, say like burglary, rape and murder, only the worst of the three is to be reported. This is to reduce the paperwork involved. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by Critical Mass

[Invicta]

I think gun crime rate is more usual  in towns like Manchester in the North.  One of our members is not only a retired Baptist pastor, but also a ex Manchester police officer, I'll ask him.