The Lord’S Intent

[Donald]

I have done some serious thinking & praying, in seeking “the Lord’s intention”, of the last few threads I have started here.  I say “the Lord’s intent”, because I try very hard never to say or post ANYTHING, unless the Lord is laying it upon my heart.

(First of all, just because the Lord laid these ideas upon my heart, does not mean that the resulting OP’s are anything special, or can’t be questioned or corrected.)

The point being, of today’s thread, is to state what I feel may be God’s purpose in my last few messages.
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The subject that has been being discussed, is how Christians(pastors) with strong faith, are to encourage others to also develop “strong faith”, instead of “weak faith”.
And one point that I have made, is that preaching against things that “are not sin”, actually hurt Christians, because it prevents them from learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s instructions in their own life.

The Bible says.....
Hebrews 5:14
“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

Scripture is clear, in this verse and many others; In order for a Christian to truly grow, in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, they must be taught by the LORD Himself.  And the only way this can happen, is for them to “exercised” their conscience, “to discern both good and evil”.  This can not be done, if their pastor is dictating his opinion of what is good or evil for them.
------------------------
In our past discussions, we have come to an impasse, because many here have decided that some things are “sin”, without being able to produce SCRIPTURE stating that they are sin.
This discussion further broke down, when terms like “smoking gun Scriptures” and “silver bullet Scriptures” were criticized, as being inferior.  This was the most troubling parts of our discussions, so far.

God’s Word should NEVER be criticized or referred to as inferior, because it disagrees with our point view.  We should allow THE BIBLE to change us and not sidestep it’s work, by this kind of verbal trickery.

I was the one that started this line of thinking, by stating that someone here was looking for a “smoking gun” to prove his point.  Now this wasn’t “exactly” a criticism; Because Scriptural truth is Scriptural truth, regardless.  I just don’t think it’s wise, to ever search the Scriptures, to prove a preconceived point that we already believe.

But smoking gun Scriptures are valid and I use them all the time; Just as Jesus did.
Jesus used “smoking gun Scriptures”(Old Testament quotes), all the time, to prove His point.  God Word is there, for us to search out the truth and NAIL IT DOWN!
------------------------
Therefore; The Point I think the Lord is trying to use me to make, is that in all of our preaching and warning others about the DESTRUCTIVE power of sin, we need to SPELL OUT to them, what sin is and what sin is not.

Now this does not mean, that we are to promote(from the pulpit), that TV or secular music is something to seek after.  Just as we need to be careful what we say behind the pulpit, that might lead someone in the opposite direction.

I have personally heard a testimony of someone who tossed out their TV, because their pastor had innocently remarked that he didn’t watch TV.  Then they told me, that later on when the pastor heard what some of his people were doing, made a public announcement that there was nothing wrong with TV and that he owned a TV for his wife and children to use, but just that he didn’t have the time for it.

This forum is not the Church; Nor is it a pulpit.  It is kind of like a street corner.  This seems to be the perfect format, for things like this to be discussed.  The warning in Romans 14:, about the “real danger” of casting a stumbling block before my brother, does not apply here, because no one here knows me. (I am a stranger on a street corner).  Now if they overhear something that challenges their thinking and “exercises their senses and discernment”, praise the Lord.

Also, more than one person here, stated that they never even listened to the “music” that I had posted, before it was removed.  If you are one of those people, let me ask you to think about that decision.
If the Person of the Holy Spirit was telling you not to listen, than praise the Lord, I am glad you didn’t.  But.... if you didn’t listen to them because you were afraid they might harm you in some way, the Bible says.......
2 Timothy 1:7
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
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Just some food for thought!
 

[irishman]

What is sin?
(Sin defined)
A general term that covers all and any aspect of evil.
Evil- the “doing” of sin; sins’ deeds, as well as the omission of doing right.
Wickedness- a lifestyle of sin.

James 4:17  “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”

Sin is clearly  defined in the Bible. Here we have the first of seven definitions of sin, most of which are obvious by the fact that the Bible outright says, “this is sin”.  
    Called “sins of omission” because we fail to do what we know we should.


Romans 14:23  “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

“Whatsoever” is not done in faith, is sin.  We do many things and forget our Lord in them, do we then do them in faith?  To fail to exercise faith is sin.
    The text speaks of offending a weaker brother, but the principle is the same.  If we have any doubt at all, it is better not to do it.


1 John 3:4  “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Any transgression of the law of God is sin.  This is self explanatory for the most part    “Trans” means “across,” for stepping across certain boundaries.*


1 John 5:17  “All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

This clarifies the previous verse, that “sin is the transgression of the law”.  Anything, however that is inherently wrong, and perhaps left to speculation in the law, is sin too.
    “All unrighteousness” need not be defined if one is honest.


Proverbs 21:4  “An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.”

Here we see three things that are said by God, to be sin.   A haughty spirit, Pompous self righteousness, and the scheming of the wicked are sin.  These are entailed in the other verses to some extent, but God wishes to make it very clear, so that there is no doubt as to what sin is, and then who has sinned.   When we define sin precisely, we see that we all have fallen short of God’s standard.


Proverbs 24:9  “The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.”

Just in case we think that it is all done with our hands, we need to learn that thoughts can be sinful too.  
 
James 2:9  “But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”

This entails prejudices and partiality.  Let us never think ourselves better than any, rich, poor or otherwise; this includes racial prejudice.

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”  Ezek. 18:20


Notes:
The reproaches of sin
    On the cross, Christ cried out “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”  It was sin that caused God to turn His back on our Savior, and sin will cause Him to turn His back on us too!  The amazing thing is that He promised in Heb. 13:5 that “I will never leave thee nor forsake thee,” which tells me that the only thing that causes God to forsake us doesn’t exist!  Sin still repulses the Father, and He must turn Himself from it, but He has promised His blood bought children that he would never (ever) leave us, not even for a time!  What a gloriously wonderful God we serve!

Rom 5:8  “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”   We can never be worse than “yet sinners”; if the Lord saved us while we were at our worst, how can we doubt him later on if we backslide?  You cannot escape the love of God, no matter what you do, where you go, or how much you try. (Rom 8: 35-39)

James 1:15  “Sin”
    All men are born into it, but enter the gate through many different paths.   Many have wandered in the “wilderness of sin,” never finding the path out of it, and being totally consumed therein.   These need to look to Christ; we need to show Him to them, that they may be led in the “paths of righteousness.”  It begins with being enticed (“drawn away”) by lusts of the world; that is followed by opportunity (lust conceived);  this ultimately leads to death.  We see; we are tempted; we take/make the opportunity; we sin.


*Trespass is sin, but more related to sins against our fellow man, while transgression is more directly sin against God.  Trespass has to do with encroachment on another’s territory, or property, hence “Forgive us our trespasses” for the Christian because his sins (transgressions) are gone.  It s the trespass sin that we must confess daily, since God does not see our transgression.  Nonetheless, “sin” is a general term covering every aspect of wrong doing.
 

 

Luk 10:25  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26  He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

 

That part of this passage that I Underlined and put in bold letters is part of the problem that you spoke of.  Too many people quote the Bible right, but how do they read it?  It is in the way it's recieved, and not so much the interpretation. 
 

[John81]

Our pastor touched a bit on this subject in Sunday school today. He put it something like this...

 

We shouldn't simply preach "don't dance", "don't play cads", "don't watch movies", "don't listen to secular music", etc.

 

Instead, if one feels led to preach upon a topic relating to one of these things (or another), the point of the preaching should be specific sins that are or could be a part of or involved with "it".

 

For instance, rather than saying it's a sin for Christians to watch movies, specific sins that are often in most movies should be preached and then one could make the application that since taking the name of the Lord in vain (for example), using His name as a cuss word is sin, Christians should not watch movies with such sin.

 

Practical biblical application is much better than broad brush statements.

[wretched]

I John 2:15, 16 demonstrate what sin is perfectly for any new born Christian to understand and the immediate application in any new born's mind is hollywood, TV, secular music with any non glorifying lyrics (ie. all of them, rock, country, rap, soul, etc.). The new born doesn't need much instruction in what specifically is wrong, their eyes are opened for the first time and they see sin for the first time (all around them).

 

The issue here is quenching the Spirit, grieving the Spirit over pet sins we want to keep. If you were so convinced that the things you allow were right by God's Word (which is the only leading or "voice" we have by the way) then you wouldn't be trying so hard to obtain validation from others on this site.

 

Do what you want to do, but stop spitting in the air and telling everyone it's raining.

[JerryNumbers]

What is sin?
(Sin defined)
A general term that covers all and any aspect of evil.
Evil- the “doing” of sin; sins’ deeds, as well as the omission of doing right.
Wickedness- a lifestyle of sin.

James 4:17  “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”

Sin is clearly  defined in the Bible. Here we have the first of seven definitions of sin, most of which are obvious by the fact that the Bible outright says, “this is sin”.  
    Called “sins of omission” because we fail to do what we know we should.


Romans 14:23  “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

“Whatsoever” is not done in faith, is sin.  We do many things and forget our Lord in them, do we then do them in faith?  To fail to exercise faith is sin.
    The text speaks of offending a weaker brother, but the principle is the same.  If we have any doubt at all, it is better not to do it.


1 John 3:4  “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Any transgression of the law of God is sin.  This is self explanatory for the most part    “Trans” means “across,” for stepping across certain boundaries.*


1 John 5:17  “All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

This clarifies the previous verse, that “sin is the transgression of the law”.  Anything, however that is inherently wrong, and perhaps left to speculation in the law, is sin too.
    “All unrighteousness” need not be defined if one is honest.


Proverbs 21:4  “An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.”

Here we see three things that are said by God, to be sin.   A haughty spirit, Pompous self righteousness, and the scheming of the wicked are sin.  These are entailed in the other verses to some extent, but God wishes to make it very clear, so that there is no doubt as to what sin is, and then who has sinned.   When we define sin precisely, we see that we all have fallen short of God’s standard.


Proverbs 24:9  “The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.”

Just in case we think that it is all done with our hands, we need to learn that thoughts can be sinful too.  
 
James 2:9  “But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”

This entails prejudices and partiality.  Let us never think ourselves better than any, rich, poor or otherwise; this includes racial prejudice.

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”  Ezek. 18:20


Notes:
The reproaches of sin
    On the cross, Christ cried out “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”  It was sin that caused God to turn His back on our Savior, and sin will cause Him to turn His back on us too!  The amazing thing is that He promised in Heb. 13:5 that “I will never leave thee nor forsake thee,” which tells me that the only thing that causes God to forsake us doesn’t exist!  Sin still repulses the Father, and He must turn Himself from it, but He has promised His blood bought children that he would never (ever) leave us, not even for a time!  What a gloriously wonderful God we serve!

Rom 5:8  “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”   We can never be worse than “yet sinners”; if the Lord saved us while we were at our worst, how can we doubt him later on if we backslide?  You cannot escape the love of God, no matter what you do, where you go, or how much you try. (Rom 8: 35-39)

James 1:15  “Sin”
    All men are born into it, but enter the gate through many different paths.   Many have wandered in the “wilderness of sin,” never finding the path out of it, and being totally consumed therein.   These need to look to Christ; we need to show Him to them, that they may be led in the “paths of righteousness.”  It begins with being enticed (“drawn away”) by lusts of the world; that is followed by opportunity (lust conceived);  this ultimately leads to death.  We see; we are tempted; we take/make the opportunity; we sin.


*Trespass is sin, but more related to sins against our fellow man, while transgression is more directly sin against God.  Trespass has to do with encroachment on another’s territory, or property, hence “Forgive us our trespasses” for the Christian because his sins (transgressions) are gone.  It s the trespass sin that we must confess daily, since God does not see our transgression.  Nonetheless, “sin” is a general term covering every aspect of wrong doing.
 

 

Luk 10:25  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26  He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

 

That part of this passage that I Underlined and put in bold letters is part of the problem that you spoke of.  Too many people quote the Bible right, but how do they read it?  It is in the way it's recieved, and not so much the interpretation. 
 

 

You need to take a very long look at yourself, compare yourself against the true Scriptures, them repent. The impasse is you refuse to let go of this world. Several have warned you, yet you refuse & laid it out very plain, yet you ignore.

[Donald]

Hello wretched

You said........
“If you were so convinced that the things you allow were right by God's Word (which is the only leading or "voice" we have by the way) then you wouldn't be trying so hard to obtain validation from others on this site.”

As I have made it clear, from the time I came to this forum, “I have not arrived yet” and “I don’t have all the answers”.

And to that end, “irishman’s” post(above), is exactly the ANSWERS that I am looking for.  A GREAT RESPONSE, with lots of SCRIPTURE and no SARCASM!
Irishman’s response has given me A LOT to study and think about, while your response is just telling me to “shut up”.
------------------------
By the way, I have NEVER POSTED THESE KINDS OF THREADS on any forum before.  Most of my threads(dozens of them), over the years(in general Christian forums), have been in support of the KJB or defending the Deity of Christ or pointing out the error of women preachers or the error of celebrating Holy Week observances, etc.(The list seems to go on and on)
Note:(I did post a copy of my first thread here, “promoting strength”, on another forum, but it was almost completely ignored.)

But this is the first(active), forum, that I have found that is made up of IFB’s and I came here just to read what others have to say.  Therefore “I was very surprised” when the Lord started giving me messages to be posted here: (what could anybody here need to be corrected about?) We are all Bible believing committed Baptists.

Like I said in this OP.  I have no ulterior motive at all.  I was just passing by(this corner of the internet), and found a handful of fellow Baptists that are cut from the same cloth that I am.

This just goes to show, that NONE OF US ARE PERFECT, and all of us(including me), should be open to correction or rebuke, because even though we are all doing the best we can to stay as close to the Lord as we can, the world or the flesh or the Devil, are going to try and get us off track.
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I think the “spark” that caused me to sit down yesterday and type out this OP, was the realization, of just how much I don’t know about what God truly thinks is acceptable in my life and how dependent I am upon “His peace”.

In every aspect of my daily life(with those things that the Bible doesn’t speak about), I stop looking at it through my human eyes or by my human intellect, and instead seek, to draw neigh to God and allow “His peace” to direct me.......
Colossians 3:15
“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.”

This is a much better way of determining what I should our shouldn’t be doing, than asking someone else what they think I should be doing.
 

[Steve Schwenke]

 

The subject that has been being discussed, is how Christians(pastors) with strong faith, are to encourage others to also develop “strong faith”, instead of “weak faith”.

And one point that I have made, is that preaching against things that “are not sin”, actually hurt Christians, because it prevents them from learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s instructions in their own life.

 The Bible says.....

Hebrews 5:14

“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

Scripture is clear, in this verse and many others; In order for a Christian to truly grow, in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, they must be taught by the LORD Himself.  And the only way this can happen, is for them to “exercised” their conscience, “to discern both good and evil”.  This can not be done, if their pastor is dictating his opinion of what is good or evil for them.

 

1.  We are to study the Scriptures and go by the Scriptures themselves to determine what is right and what is wrong.  You are very inconsistent here.  Later on in this post you complain about the “lack of Scripture” produced regarding labeling some things sin, but not supplying Scripture to prove that.  Here you are saying that we don’t need Scripture, but we should learn to follow the Holy Spirit.   Are you charismatic or something? 
2. The passage you quote here has absolutely NOTHING to do with the questionable areas you are hung up on (music, TV, etc.)  The “meat” as defined in the passage, and elsewhere is BIBLE DOCTRINE.  Paul’s point here is that these Hebrew Christians should have been able to handle some heavy Bible doctrine (the doctrines he had been discussing), but they were not able to handle it because they had not grown.  They were still on the milk.  They were still babies that had not grown up.  So your application is WAY OFF BASE. 
3. This is why I have attacked the “silver bullet” system of cherry picking Bible verses to prove your point.  The “silver bullets” are generally not applicable to your point.  It does not invalidate them as Scripture – it just means that you have misappropriated it for your own ends.
4. The role of the pastor is to teach the Bible.  This stated repeatedly – Eph. 4:11, I Tim. 3:2, II Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:9, etc.  While I understand that each Christian is to grow to a point where they can make a decision for themselves on these matters of conscience (i.e. “grey areas”), they initially do need someone to give them guidance.  But even then, we as pastors are to direct them to the Bible.  The Bible is the final authority.  What I object to is your dismissal of the Bible as the final authority, and your use of “the leading of the Holy Spirit” instead.  I have demonstrated that this is a charismatic, experiential teaching, void of Scripture, used to justify any and all manner of sin. 

In our past discussions, we have come to an impasse, because many here have decided that some things are “sin”, without being able to produce SCRIPTURE stating that they are sin.

 

Once again, you are inconsistent.  You don’t want to discuss the specific issues, but then demand Scripture to prove the specific issues you don’t want to discuss are really sin.  It is bewildering, to say the least. 

So my approach has not been to attack music or TV, per se, as much as it has been to demonstrate how we determine if something is good or evil.  My conclusion has been that with a subject like music, the answer will not be found in ONE VERSE (I.e. “the silver bullet.”)  Because the subject is more complicated, and invokes such emotional responses, and because the subject covers so much territory, we as pastors owe it to ourselves and our congregations to do a thorough examination of the subject, including research into the subject of music outside of the Bible (i.e. history of music, techniques, etc.), and then presenting those conclusions to our congregations.  That way we are not “dictating” to our congregations what they can or cannot listen to (I don’t dictate it anyway!), but rather we are giving them a thorough examination of the subject from Scripture so that they have the principles to work from, and can see the integrity of the conclusion.  The conclusions are not some verse that was “cherry picked” to prove a point, but rather the conclusions came from a thorough study that they can see for themselves.

I have no idea why you object to this method.

 

 This discussion further broke down, when terms like “smoking gun Scriptures” and “silver bullet Scriptures” were criticized, as being inferior.  This was the most troubling parts of our discussions, so far.

 

Please provide the QUOTATIONS where I said that the Scriptures themselves were inferior.  I was discussing the METHOD, not the Scriptures.   All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, but not all men are honest in their interpretation or use of Scripture.   That is the point.  That is why we study.  That is why God gave us HIS method of study in Isaiah 28:9-11 (which you have not discussed.)

 

Jesus used “smoking gun Scriptures”(Old Testament quotes), all the time, to prove His point.  God Word is there, for us to search out the truth and NAIL IT DOWN!

 

Different context, different subjects.  We are not discussing issues that the Bible directly addresses.  Those are simple issues to deal with.  Your posts are about the subjects that are not so clearly defined.  These subjects you listed yourself, such as rock music and TV.  The subject of ROCK music is not addressed in the Bible, therefore there are no “silver bullet” verses that would be appropriate.  We are obligated to dig deeper on this subject.  The subject of MUSIC in general is addressed.  So if we study all aspects of the subject in Scripture, we will find principles to apply to our specific situation today.

I still have no clue what your objection is to this method of study and application.

 ------------------------

 Therefore; The Point I think the Lord is trying to use me to make, is that in all of our preaching and warning others about the DESTRUCTIVE power of sin, we need to SPELL OUT to them, what sin is and what sin is not.

 

Agreed

 

 Now this does not mean, that we are to promote(from the pulpit), that TV or secular music is something to seek after.  Just as we need to be careful what we say behind the pulpit, that might lead someone in the opposite direction.

 

Problem:  The preacher’s job does not end when he steps out of the pulpit.  What he says OUT of the pulpit – by word of deed – is just as important, if not MORE important, than what he says IN the pulpit. 

Example: you have never PUBLICLY endorsed rock music “from the pulpit.”  But you endorse it out of the pulpit.  What message are you sending to your congregation?  If it is acceptable in YOUR sight to listen to it, then why would you NOT endorse it? 

Everything the preacher says and does is important, and sets the example for their congregations.  In my view, it is rather disingenuous, if not downright dishonest, perhaps even hypocritical to hide your true feelings from “the pulpit” but discuss them elsewhere. 

Solomon was correct: There is no new thing under the sun.  The issues we wrestle with today in our IFB churches are no different than the issues our predecessors have had to wrestle with.  Anyone who has read any amount of Baptist history knows this to be true.  Therefore, the issue of secular music is not new.  But obviously, the Lord could not write, “Thou shalt not listen to rock-n-roll music” because it would not have made sense to ANYONE until the 1950’s.  Therefore, the Lord has laid out CLEAR PRINCIPLES regarding music that are still applicable today.

An endorsement from the preacher is still an endorsement, regardless of where that endorsement was made. 

 

 This forum is not the Church; Nor is it a pulpit.  It is kind of like a street corner.  This seems to be the perfect format, for things like this to be discussed.  The warning in Romans 14:, about the “real danger” of casting a stumbling block before my brother, does not apply here, because no one here knows me. (I am a stranger on a street corner).  Now if they overhear something that challenges their thinking and “exercises their senses and discernment”, praise the Lord.

 

Disagree:  we are ALWAYS to be aware of the weaker brethren around us, and to not act or speak in such a manner that would cause them to stumble.  ALWAYS.

 Also, more than one person here, stated that they never even listened to the “music” that I had posted, before it was removed.  If you are one of those people, let me ask you to think about that decision.

 If the Person of the Holy Spirit was telling you not to listen, than praise the Lord, I am glad you didn’t.  But.... if you didn’t listen to them because you were afraid they might harm you in some way, the Bible says.......

2 Timothy 1:7

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”

 

Again, why do you insist on flaunting your liberty?  Why can you not simply allow those people who have made this decision, live with their decision?  Why does it bother you so much that people would object to your extreme liberty?  Romans 14 does apply, no matter how much you attempt to dodge it. 

Perhaps those people have very good reasons for their objections.  They are not under any obligation to explain themselves to YOU – YOU are not the judge.  They give account to the LORD – not YOU!  Romans 14:12!  I would almost believe you if you would just let those people alone in their decisions! 

Perhaps those people objected because of the Scriptural Principles regarding music that they embrace!

It is one thing to challenge a Christian on a DOCTRINAL matter, it is an entirely different thing to challenge a Christian on a matter of conscience – a matter that could lead them into SIN!  You are way off base here, brother! 

 

In Christ,

[Donald]

Hello Steve, and thank you for responding.

Because of the length of your response, I am only going to be able to respond to the first part it.

The first part of your response has to do with Hebrews 5:14..
“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

And here are your 4 responses to this part of my OP.....
------------------------
(1)  We are to study the Scriptures and go by the Scriptures themselves to determine what is right and what is wrong.  You are very inconsistent here.  Later on in this post you complain about the “lack of Scripture” produced regarding labeling some things sin, but not supplying Scripture to prove that.  Here you are saying that we don’t need Scripture, but we should learn to follow the Holy Spirit.   Are you charismatic or something?

This may be a typo, but here you said....
“You are very inconsistent here.  Later on in this post you complain about the “lack of Scripture” produced regarding labeling some things sin, but not supplying Scripture to prove that.”

You ask me to “provide Scripture” to prove that “you do not use Scripture in your responses to me”?  Maybe I don’t understand this question.

You also said....
“Here you are saying that we don’t need Scripture, but we should learn to follow the Holy Spirit.   Are you charismatic or something?”

As we both know, I have NEVER SAID, we don’t need Scripture!  (As the first part of your paragraph states.)

But what I have been saying is, we NEED the Holy Spirit’s help in our everyday lives, to know what “stands” we should be taking in our faith....
1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
------------------------
(2) “The passage you quote here has absolutely NOTHING to do with the questionable areas you are hung up on (music, TV, etc.)  The “meat” as defined in the passage, and elsewhere is BIBLE DOCTRINE.  Paul’s point here is that these Hebrew Christians should have been able to handle some heavy Bible doctrine (the doctrines he had been discussing), but they were not able to handle it because they had not grown.  They were still on the milk.  They were still babies that had not grown up.  So your application is WAY OFF BASE.”

First of all, as I made clear from my last response on this thread, I am not “hung up” on these things.  In fact, I have NEVER made them an issue before, anywhere!

Now, this passage has EVERYTHING TO DO with this discussion, because at the heart of the this subject is the issue of “Spiritual maturity”.  Yes brother, the “meat” being talked about here does have to do with “being able to handle some heavy Bible doctrine”.  Heavy Bible Doctrine, is what I have been laying on you.
The Doctrine of “Being led of the Spirit, not the flesh”, for one.

The Holy Spirit within every believer, will GUIDE that believer into ALL TRUTH!
(Not popular opinion among most other IFB pastors, but TRUTH!)

Praise the Lord, my application of this passage, is RIGHT ON TARGET!
------------------------
(3) This is why I have attacked the “silver bullet” system of cherry picking Bible verses to prove your point.  The “silver bullets” are generally not applicable to your point.  It does not invalidate them as Scripture – it just means that you have misappropriated it for your own ends.

Your attack of what you call the “silver bullet system”(as  you call it), is very interesting.
Was Jesus “cherry picking Bible verses”?   When He said.....
Matthew 4:4
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

NO HE WASN’T!  He was quoting Scripture to get His point across.

What you are talking about here, is the practice of someone “Using Scripture out of context”, to prove their point.

As I have demonstrated above, I have not done that with Hebrews 5:14.
It says what it means and means what it says!
------------------------
(4) The role of the pastor is to teach the Bible.  This stated repeatedly – Eph. 4:11, I Tim. 3:2, II Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:9, etc.  While I understand that each Christian is to grow to a point where they can make a decision for themselves on these matters of conscience (i.e. “grey areas”), they initially do need someone to give them guidance.  But even then, we as pastors are to direct them to the Bible.  The Bible is the final authority.  What I object to is your dismissal of the Bible as the final authority, and your use of “the leading of the Holy Spirit” instead.  I have demonstrated that this is a charismatic, experiential teaching, void of Scripture, used to justify any and all manner of sin.

This is a strong charge, and it would STICK, if the Bible didn’t say.......
John 16:13
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

Galatians 5:18
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”

Romans 8:14
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

To say nothing of this kind of leading....
Acts 16:6
“Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,”

Acts 13:2
“As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.”

Acts 10:19-20
V.19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
V.20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.”

As you can see, the DOCTRINE of being led of the Holy Spirit, is not a charismatic teaching, but a “Bible teaching”!


I will respond to your next point later.
 

[Steve Schwenke]

Respond away all you want, Donald.  We still are not getting anywhere...

I understand very clearly what you are saying, but you still have not gotten what I am saying....so your responses are based upon (1) self-justification, and (2) a willful intent to misinterpret and misunderstand what I am saying so that you can accomplish (1). 

I never denied the leading of the Holy Spirit - I am merely saying that you are over-emphasizing it, and under-emphasizing the role of the Holy Bible.  The "leading of the Holy Spirit" is rather subjective, and can be, has been, and is currently used by many people to justify their sin.  The "leading of the Holy Spirit" is ALWAYS subject to the teaching of the HOLY BIBLE.  In other words, the Holy Spirit will NEVER "lead" anyone to do anything contrary to the Holy Bible. 

 

I just happen to think that Solomon was correct when he said "There is NO NEW THING under the sun."  That being the case, I cannot imagine that our omnipotent and omniscient Lord and Saviour would cast us adrift on the sea of life without clear instructions on important issues.  Maybe those instructions are couched in principles, and maybe we have to be more thorough in our studying to find out what God said on a subject, but the instructions are there nonetheless.

I still cannot fathom what your objection is to a careful, systematic, thorough study of a subject is.  Why would any Bible Believing Baptist object to this approach!!!???

Why demand a "silver bullet" over this approach?

 

The examples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ do not apply, as the subjects He was dealing with in those passages were relatively simple.  If you want to base your entire decision making process on finding ONE VERSE that supports what YOU WANT TO DO, then go ahead, and be in disobedience to II Timothy 2:15.  It is your choice.  But then again, we are not discussing those relatively simple issues the Lord addressed with unregenerate lost hypocrites, are we?  No, we are discussing subjects that have caused much division in our own churches of SAVED PEOPLE, many of whom are sincerely following our Saviour Jesus Christ.  You are comparing apples to oranges....and that never works out very well.

 

I am saying that the you are denying a thorough, in-depth study of difficult subjects, and you are instead DEMANDING a "silver bullet" verse from me to prove your position wrong. 

Finally, you indeed have clearly wrested Hebrews 5:14 from its context to prove your point. 

 

Adios!

 

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

 This may be a typo, but here you said....
“You are very inconsistent here.  Later on in this post you complain about the “lack of Scripture” produced regarding labeling some things sin, but not supplying Scripture to prove that.”

You ask me to “provide Scripture” to prove that “you do not use Scripture in your responses to me”?  Maybe I don’t understand this question.

 

Let me paraphrase what we have covered in our previous discussions:

You say, "I don't want to discuss anything in particular, just the general idea of "grey areas" like music."

So we use the general idea of music as a reference point to address the issue of "grey areas."

Then YOU say, "Well, you didn't provide any specific references from the Bible to prove that rock music was evil, so your entire argument is wrong."

 

That is exactly what happened in our previous discussions.  The problem is that we were not (at least I was not!) discussing music as much as I was discussing "grey areas" using music as a reference point.

 

The very next sentence which you conveniently overlooked CLEARLY EXPLAINS MY POINT.

Here you are saying that we don’t need Scripture, but we should learn to follow the Holy Spirit.   Are you charismatic or something? 

 

 

I am repeatedly calling for a careful, thorough, systematic study of these "grey areas" so that we (1) come to the proper conclusions, (2) clearly explain to our congregations WHY, HOW, and WHAT about those subjects.  Our conclusions should come from these types of studies, not from cherry-picking one or two verses.

You are repeatedly calling for us to "follow the leading of the Holy Spirit."  What does that mean?  See, you never explain how that works.  While I do not deny the leading of the Holy Spirit in my life, and while I do teach that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, the "all truth" is the key that you seem to overlook.  You seem to forget about John 14:26 and John 17:17 in regards to this equation.

Hence, the Holy Spirit will NEVER "lead" us to do anything that is contrary to Scripture.  Therefore, our study of Scripture is supreme, and the Holy Spirit leads us to our conclusions based upon our study of Scripture.  You are making it sound like it is some type of charismatic experience.  Maybe you don't intend that, but based on your reaction to my demands for careful study of Scripture, what am I to think?

[swathdiver]

Scripture is clear, in this verse and many others; In order for a Christian to truly grow, in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, they must be taught by the LORD Himself.  And the only way this can happen, is for them to “exercised” their conscience, “to discern both good and evil”.  This can not be done, if their pastor is dictating his opinion of what is good or evil for them.
 

 

Donald, are you saying here that one can only really learn and grow through prayer and not the Bible, pastors or preachers?

[Steve Schwenke]

------------------------
(4) The role of the pastor is to teach the Bible.  This stated repeatedly – Eph. 4:11, I Tim. 3:2, II Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:9, etc.  While I understand that each Christian is to grow to a point where they can make a decision for themselves on these matters of conscience (i.e. “grey areas”), they initially do need someone to give them guidance.  But even then, we as pastors are to direct them to the Bible.  The Bible is the final authority.  What I object to is your dismissal of the Bible as the final authority, and your use of “the leading of the Holy Spirit” instead.  I have demonstrated that this is a charismatic, experiential teaching, void of Scripture, used to justify any and all manner of sin.

This is a strong charge, and it would STICK, if the Bible didn’t say.......
John 16:13
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

Galatians 5:18
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”

Romans 8:14
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

To say nothing of this kind of leading....
Acts 16:6
“Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,”

Acts 13:2
“As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.”

Acts 10:19-20
V.19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
V.20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.”

As you can see, the DOCTRINE of being led of the Holy Spirit, is not a charismatic teaching, but a “Bible teaching”!


I will respond to your next point later.
 

Here you are talking about how to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit regarding "grey areas" such as music, TV, etc. and you use these Scriptures as "proof texts."  Well, you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

In any of these passages, are there any grey areas being discussed?

John 16:13 - how is "all truth" defined in Scripture?  (Hint - John 17:17 would be a good place to start!)

Now that we have "truth" defined as Scripture, does this not then help us understand Galatians 5:18 and Romans 8:14?  You see, it is not some mystical experience, but rather the Holy Spirit leading us through His word.   A lost person can never be led by the Spirit, and a lost person cannot understand God's word (I Cor. 2:14).  We can and should.

 

The verses in Acts are not dealing with doctrinal issues, but rather geographical locations.  No application to our discussion whatsoever.  That is a completely different topic.

 

I do believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit, just not the way you seem to be advocating it.

[Steve Schwenke]

Your attack of what you call the “silver bullet system”(as  you call it), is very interesting.
Was Jesus “cherry picking Bible verses”?   When He said.....
Matthew 4:4
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

NO HE WASN’T!  He was quoting Scripture to get His point across.

 

Again, brother, you are completely misunderstanding my point, and attempting to put two things together that don't belong together.

 

Was Jesus Christ discussing "grey areas" with the Devil?  No, this is a completely different scenario that requires a completely different approach.

It was my understanding that we were attempting to discern if a particular issue is good or evil.  I thought we were discussing "grey areas." 

 

Yes, when temptation comes around, it is wise for the Christian to follow the example of Jesus Christ, and quote Scripture as our defense.  There is no question that this is the best approach.

Sure, when the skeptic or atheist comes around, it is wise to give them one simple verse that drives to the heart of their most pressing issue, which for them is salvation. 

Certainly, there are other circumstances where quoting one verse is sufficient.

 

But what we are discussing is different.  We are discussing complex issues that demand more than one verse of Scripture as a proof text. 

We are not discussing how to handle temptations. 

 

By "cherry picking" I mean that someone picks one verse out of context to prove their position on a particular subject, even when that verse does not truly answer the question at hand.  It is a proof-text, plain and simple.  Their conclusion is NOT based on careful study of Scripture, but rather a justification of their own current thoughts and actions.

 

When it comes to "grey areas," I am advocating a careful, thorough, systematic study of that subject.  Our conclusions should be based on that study.  Certainly, we might be able to summarize our findings in one or two verses, but those verses demand explanation in light of our research. 

Example:  Regarding rock music, I could easily quote Eph. 5:19-20, but that does not give us a very accurate response, now does it?  So we have dig deeper.  I know what I am getting at by quoting Eph. 5:19-20, but my congregation deserves a better answer that more clearly pinpoints the issues with rock music, and why I believe it is evil.  Of course, it is their decision what they listen...no demands from me.  But, there is no "silver bullet" on the issue of music.  It requires more study. 

 

Hopefully, you can see the difference.

[Steve Schwenke]

earlier you said this: 

<sup>I think the “spark” that caused me to sit down yesterday and type out this OP, was the realization, of just how much I don’t know about what God truly thinks is acceptable in my life and how dependent I am upon “His peace”.

In every aspect of my daily life(with those things that the Bible doesn’t speak about), I stop looking at it through my human eyes or by my human intellect, and instead seek, to draw neigh to God and allow “His peace” to direct me.......
Colossians 3:15
“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.”

This is a much better way of determining what I should our shouldn’t be doing, than asking someone else what they think I should be doing.</sup>

 

This is one reason that I have been so critical of your posts.  You are depending upon a FEELING to determine right or wrong, good or evil.  But is this not the very purpose in the Lord giving us the Bible?  That is why I continue to say that the Bible is the Final Authority.  We can deceive ourselves with our feelings.  The Holy Spirit will never lead us to do anything that contradicts the Holy Bible.  Therefore, the responsibility is upon us to prayerfully study God's words to determine our course of action.  There are times when it comes to geographical locations (such as in Acts) that we depend upon the subjective "leading of the Holy Spirit" but even then, this is not a perfect guide, because we are prone to justify what we want to do, and then blame it on God. 

Therefore we need to advise extreme CAUTION in these areas, and drive people to the word of God and prayer, rather than the subjective "leading of the Holy Spirit."  I do not deny the ministry of the Holy Spirit AT ALL - I just think you sound too charismatic to me in your emphasis of it, and your devaluation of the word of God.

 

In Christ,

[Ukulelemike]

Sin bad. Obedience good!