Law Or The Prophets

[John81]

If the OT were of no use to us, the Lord would not have preserved it for us.
To say that a Christian can live fully for the Lord with only the New Testament is to ignore the truths, principles, examples and more that God has preserved for us.
You can get by, but you can not live fully for the Lord with only the NT

If you read my post on this I clearly said the OT is of benefit, but the fact remains, if a Christian only had access to the NT he could fully abide in Christ. The way Christians are to live and conduct themselves are all given in the NT.

 

From around the world and from centuries of witness, we see Christians living their lives fully surrendered to the Lord through the teachings of the NT.

 

None of this detracts from the benefits one can gain from the OT.

[Guest]

If the OT were of no use to us, the Lord would not have preserved it for us.
To say that a Christian can live fully for the Lord with only the New Testament is to ignore the truths, principles, examples and more that God has preserved for us.
You can get by, but you can not live fully for the Lord with only the NT

Yes, milk is good for the babes, bread and milk for the child, but meat is for the mature man of God. I wonder if God knew it would be beneficial for us to look back and see how the schoolmaster or tutor brought us to where we are today, why bread alone is not enough?

 

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

I still wonder if adultery is another example of summary in the NT being fully understood by looking back at the OT?

[Covenanter]

 DaveW, on 01 Sept 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

John:

If you read my post on this I clearly said the OT is of benefit, but the fact remains, if a Christian only had access to the NT he could fully abide in Christ. The way Christians are to live and conduct themselves are all given in the NT.

 

From around the world and from centuries of witness, we see Christians living their lives fully surrendered to the Lord through the teachings of the NT.

 

None of this detracts from the benefits one can gain from the OT.

 

Yes, milk is good for the babes, bread and milk for the child, but meat is for the mature man of God. I wonder if God knew it would be beneficial for us to look back and see how the schoolmaster or tutor brought us to where we are today, why bread alone is not enough?

 

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

I still wonder if adultery is another example of summary in the NT being fully understood by looking back at the OT?

 

To what extent should we consider the OT to be "meat" & the NT to be "milk" or "bread & milk" ? I think not.

 

To what extent is it: "beneficial for us to look back and see how the schoolmaster or tutor brought us to where we are today, why bread alone is not enough?" Again, is that the right question, particular the reference to "bread alone" ? The NT is feeding us with strong meat - strong meat that the Jews & Judaisers could not stomach.

Gal. 3:²³ But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

²⁴ Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

²⁵ But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

²⁶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

We must not live in the OT - the NT teaching of Christ is essential to an understanding of the OT. While with NT guidance, we understand the Gospel, even as preached in the OT - the OT explicit teaching was veiled.

[The Glory Land]

Having the Old and New Testament rightly divided, you have GODS WORDS, If you are trying to keep and live the Old Testament Laws, good for you, we all should, but we all fall short. This is why we live the New and will always remember the Old. For the Old Testament points us to the Savior, who is the Man, Jesus the Christ .

[Guest]

John:

 

 

To what extent should we consider the OT to be "meat" & the NT to be "milk" or "bread & milk" ? I think not.

 

To what extent is it: "beneficial for us to look back and see how the schoolmaster or tutor brought us to where we are today, why bread alone is not enough?" Again, is that the right question, particular the reference to "bread alone" ? The NT is feeding us with strong meat - strong meat that the Jews & Judaisers could not stomach.

Gal. 3:²³ But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

²⁴ Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

²⁵ But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

²⁶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

We must not live in the OT - the NT teaching of Christ is essential to an understanding of the OT. While with NT guidance, we understand the Gospel, even as preached in the OT - the OT explicit teaching was veiled.

I never said the NT wasn't meat. I explained to get the meat we need in MANY cases to look for the full explanation. The full explanation can be understood by looking at the OT.

 

I am not exhorting Christians to live by OT Law. If however, a person has difficulty with something in the NT, being a born again, faith by grace Christian, with a principle or precept or faith practice then, the OT provides greater detail and types in many cases.

 

The OT can provide the "WHY" behind the "bread alone." The question, "Why can't man live by bread alone?" The answer, God showed us this in the Wilderness of Sin. They had bread but they were not trusting God's words for the Spiritual food. God gave them meat too but, they obviously were not ready for the meat. God will provide what you need, when you need, and as much as you need; trust and obey. 

 

When you pray to understand Hebrews 3:7-9, God may lead you to Exodus 16. What was behind this "day of temptation" spoken of? [Rhetorical] 

[Covenanter]

When you pray to understand Hebrews 3:7-9, God may lead you to Exodus 16. What was behind this "day of temptation" spoken of? [Rhetorical] 

 

It may also lead us to Num. 14 & Psalm 95, and also to Mat. 24 - the generation that rejected its Messiah had not died out.

[John81]

Jesus said if we love the Lord with our all and love others as ourselves we fulfill all.

[Guest]

Jesus said if we love the Lord with our all and love others as ourselves we fulfill all.

That would be a great question to ask, in another thread, "Who here or anywhere is fulfilling Christ's summation of the OT ten commandments?"

 

But, that strays from the topic and it's follow on...

 

First, "That is, as a born again Christian, would it be wrong for me to obey as much as is possible in this earthly body?"

Second, "Which parts of the O.T. might continue to be pleasing to God?"

 

This led us through the conversation on the 10 and a search for others we try to obey. Then further discussion brought up what we might be able to further understand in the NT by looking at the OT examples God provided.

 

Doesn't this mean we would want to obey those things in the OT which translate directly to the life of a Christian? Also, would the OT help define the principle or precept for the Christian in practice of faith?

[Covenanter]

That would be a great question to ask, in another thread, "Who here or anywhere is fulfilling Christ's summation of the OT ten commandments?"

 

But, that strays from the topic and it's follow on...

 

First, "That is, as a born again Christian, would it be wrong for me to obey as much as is possible in this earthly body?"

Second, "Which parts of the O.T. might continue to be pleasing to God?"

 

This led us through the conversation on the 10 and a search for others we try to obey. Then further discussion brought up what we might be able to further understand in the NT by looking at the OT examples God provided.

 

Doesn't this mean we would want to obey those things in the OT which translate directly to the life of a Christian? Also, would the OT help define the principle or precept for the Christian in practice of faith?

 

Moses & the prophets are disparaging about ritual sacrifices without heart, without faith.

 

Deut. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

Jer. 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

 

Isaiah 1:¹⁰ Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

¹¹ To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

¹² When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

¹³ Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

¹⁴ Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

¹⁵ And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

¹⁶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

¹⁷ Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

¹⁸ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

¹⁹ If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

²⁰ But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

 

Micah 6:⁶ Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

⁷ Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

⁸ He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

 

When Stephen recounts the history of Israel, he declares the insincerity of their sacrifices & legalism:

 

Acts 7:⁴² Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

 

⁴⁸ Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

⁴⁹ Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

⁵⁰ Hath not my hand made all these things?

⁵¹ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

⁵² Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

⁵³ Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 

Paul contrasts the worthless legalism with heart obedience:

 

Rom. 2:²⁵ For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

²⁶ Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

²⁷ And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

²⁸ For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

²⁹ But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[LindaR]

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[John81]

That would be a great question to ask, in another thread, "Who here or anywhere is fulfilling Christ's summation of the OT ten commandments?"

 

But, that strays from the topic and it's follow on...

 

First, "That is, as a born again Christian, would it be wrong for me to obey as much as is possible in this earthly body?"

Second, "Which parts of the O.T. might continue to be pleasing to God?"

 

This led us through the conversation on the 10 and a search for others we try to obey. Then further discussion brought up what we might be able to further understand in the NT by looking at the OT examples God provided.

 

Doesn't this mean we would want to obey those things in the OT which translate directly to the life of a Christian? Also, would the OT help define the principle or precept for the Christian in practice of faith?

We can't keep the law, which is why Jesus came to fulfill the law and establish the New Covenant. Hebrews deals with this matter.

 

Christ pointed out that we are to allow our hearts to be changed which will be reflected on the outside. We are no longer called to try and keep the OT. If we focus upon what Christ said we should focus upon, that change of heart which allows us to abide in Him and grow in living the Two Great Commandments, all that is necessary and beneficial will be done.

[Guest]

It seems folks are hung up on defending the NT Christian life, maybe from years of having to defend it. In this thread grace through faith in Jesus Christ with forgiveness, reconciliation, and in the end eternal life; there is no attack on faith alone minus the works of the law and the works of the flesh. Or, as some of us like to say faith + nothing = salvation.

 

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

Ro. 3:21b is the hilt of this discussion. Can the OT show us what is meant in many cases by our security in Christ Jesus. The simple answer is yes. The OT can show us where and how the law could not save. It can reveal what man would have to have done to redeem ourselves (which no man could do). It can reveal the emphasis God puts on certain aspects of being one of his chosen. It also can reveal the mind of God, his word, which is Jesus Christ (we call them types).  

 

If someone asked me what the Bible meant by "the law" in Ro. 3:21 I would show them Exodus and Leviticus. If they asked me how or why God made this of such great importance I would show them Deuteronomy 6, then take them to John. There are parts of the NT God revealed in the OT which can answer questions about faith practice in the NT.

[Guest]

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Yes, if you're doing these two things then you're obeying the essence of all the law and prophets in the OT. I'll ask, since it's being pushed. Are you able to keep these two?

[ASongOfDegrees]

If you are going to put yourself back under the law then you have to keep it all including the sacrifices and such. They were part of the law. You can't pick and choose.

[Guest]

If you are going to put yourself back under the law then you have to keep it all including the sacrifices and such. They were part of the law. You can't pick and choose.

Which one of them said they were putting themselves under the law? I missed that comment. Who said it?