Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

 

What did the apostles have to say?

 

Acts 15:5-29

5   But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6   And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7   And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8   And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9   And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10   Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11   But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12   Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13   And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14   Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15   And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16   After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17   That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18   Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19   Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20   But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21   For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22   Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23   And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

24   Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25   It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26   Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27   We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28   For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29   That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

The apostles agreed that the church wasn't under the bondage of the law whatsoever...and they didn't include tithing as one of the things the church should observe in verses 20 and 29.

 

Again, if you purpose in your heart to give a tenth of your income...that's wonderful.  Just know that it's not required.  However, many pastors do teach that it's a requirement for the church. 

 

Right.  They teach the members to tithe when they tell them they should give 10% of their money (as one poster says he tells new converts)  Many also subtly tell the members to tithe by stating that it is time to receive "tithes and offerings."  LOL

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Did I say you said that they were in reference to a tithe?  NO, I didn't.  Back up and re-read.

I merely said you referenced those verses.  I did not say you claimed they were in reference to tithing.

Set in the list the way you did and with the statements that they don't teach or reference tithing gives the impression that they were used as some kind of argument to that effect.

 

It's commonly referred to as using a statement out of context. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Point 1:  I have no dog in this fight, so no, it's not my pride.  You know, several months ago you almost convinced me, but your rotten attitude kept me from considering anything else you had to say.  I should know because around these here parts, I'm the know it all with the mean spirit and rotten attitude.

 

Point 2:  There are no verses, none, no not one.  Even if there were, you wouldn't see them.

 

Point 3:  No false accusations, you've been rude and owe several folks here an apology.  You even called them names and then projected what you were doing to one fellow Christian onto another.  Time for some humble pie, it's wrong and you know it.

If you "have no dog in this fight," you sure have a funny way of showing it.

How have I been rude?  By presenting truth?  When Stephen called those he was preaching to stiff-necked and perverse, why didn't Paul speak up and say that Stephen owed everyone an apology?  Oh, that's right... because he was telling the truth.

[GaryArnold]

Preacher:  I don't DEMAND them to tithe.  I tell them they should start their giving at 10%

 

Why do you tell them they should start their giving at 10% when the scriptures say they should give according to what God has put in their heart?  Are you trying to take it out of God's hands?

 

A big problem with tithe teachers is that they seem to lack faith that God will take care of His church.  They try to take it out of God's hands and teach it the way they want instead of the way God wants.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Set in the list the way you did and with the statements that they don't teach or reference tithing gives the impression that they were used as some kind of argument to that effect.

 

It's commonly referred to as using a statement out of context. 

Preacher, I am sorry if you misread it.  But my intention was not to misquote you.  My intention in posting all the references was to show Irishman (who claimed Scripture was given to refute my stance on tithing) that no Scripture was given by anyone that refuted my stance.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Why do you tell them they should start their giving at 10% when the scriptures say they should give according to what God has put in their heart?  Are you trying to take it out of God's hands?

 

A big problem with tithe teachers is that they seem to lack faith that God will take care of His church.  They try to take it out of God's hands and teach it the way they want instead of the way God wants.

That is so right, Gary!  And that was my point.  The preacher claims he does not DEMAND the tithe, but subtly he does DEMAND it.

Thank you for your insight!

[LindaR]

Origin and Definition of Tithing (Excerpts) by Russell E. Kelly, PHD

 

Tithing Was Not an Eternal Moral Principle

 

A tradition is not automatically an eternal moral principle merely because is it very old, very common and very widespread. The fact that tithing was common in much pagan worship before the Bible was written does not make it a moral principle. Idolatry, worship of astrological bodies, child sacrifice, temple prostitution, witchcraft and necromancy are equally very old, very common and very widespread in pagan cultures. The practice of giving is found in natural law, but an exact percentage is not.

 

Tithing Was Not a Minimum Required from All Old Covenant Israelites

 

Only those Israelites who earned a livelihood from farming and herding inside Israel were required to tithe under the Mosaic Law. Their increase came from God’s hand. Those whose increase came from their own crafts and skills were not required to tithe products and money. The poor and needy who did not tithe and received from the tithe gave freewill offerings.

 

Tithes Were Not the Same as First-fruits

 

The first-fruit was a very small amount of the first crop harvest and the first-born was the first offspring of animals. The first-fruit was small enough to fit into a hand-held basket (Deuteronomy  26:1-4, 10; Leviticus 23:17; Numbers 18:13-17;         2 Chronicles 31:5). First-fruit and first-born offerings went directly to the Temple and were required to be totally consumed by ministering priests only inside the Temple (Nehemiah 10:35-37a; Exodus 23:19; 34:26; Deuteronomy 18:4).

 

Tithes Were Not from Money

 

One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food must have been used for most transactions.  This argument is not biblical. Genesis alone contains “money” in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the tithe is first mentioned in Leviticus 27. The word shekel also appears often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

 

In fact many centuries before Israel entered Canaan and began tithing food from God’s Holy Land money was an essential everyday item. For example money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Genesis 17:12+); land (Genesis 23:9+); freedom (Exodus 23:11); court fines (Exodus 21 all; 22 all); sanctuary dues (Exodus 30:12+); vows (Leviticus 27:3-7); poll taxes (Numbers 3:47+), wine and strong drinks (Deuteronomy 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deuteronomy 22:29).

 

According to Genesis 47:15-17 food was only used for barter after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in God’s Word in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore the argument that money was not prevalent enough for everyday use is false. Yet the tithe contents never include money from non-food products and trades.

[GaryArnold]

Can anyone show me ANY scriptures where ANYONE is commanded or even encouraged to give one penny to a corporation doing business as a church?

 

The OT tithe was given to the Levites.  The Levites were servants to the priests - like today's ushers, musicians, singers, janitor, secretary, etc.  Then those who received the tithe gave a tenth from that tithe to the priest.  Is that the way tithing is taught today?

 

I am convinced, from my own observance, that few pastors today are capable or qualified to teach NT giving principles and good financial stewardship.  If they knew how to teach the NT giving principles properly, I am convinced giving would INCREASE far above what they are getting teaching the false tithing doctrine invented by church leaders around 1870.

[GaryArnold]

Malachi 3:9 (KJV)  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

THIS WHOLE NATION. The curse was not on the individual. The blessing was not for the individual. It was a NATION thing, not an individual thing.

Unfortunately, the teaching has been wrong in the churches for over 100 years now and that makes it hard for those who were taught wrong to see the truth."

Notice that when the nation was cursed, even the righteous were taken away with the punishment for the curse. That is why the ancient prophets like Ezekiel and Daniel prophesied DURING THE CAPTIVITY. Jeremiah prophesied of the captivity BEFORE it happened, and was taken away WHEN IT HAPPENED. This should be so easy to see! The blessing and the curse of the law was COLLECTIVE, AS A NATION, not individual.

 

So why does the pastor teach Malachi 3 as though each individual may be blessed or cursed according to whether or not they tithe?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Malachi 3:9 (KJV)  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

THIS WHOLE NATION. The curse was not on the individual. The blessing was not for the individual. It was a NATION thing, not an individual thing.

Unfortunately, the teaching has been wrong in the churches for over 100 years now and that makes it hard for those who were taught wrong to see the truth."

Notice that when the nation was cursed, even the righteous were taken away with the punishment for the curse. That is why the ancient prophets like Ezekiel and Daniel prophesied DURING THE CAPTIVITY. Jeremiah prophesied of the captivity BEFORE it happened, and was taken away WHEN IT HAPPENED. This should be so easy to see! The blessing and the curse of the law was COLLECTIVE, AS A NATION, not individual.

 

So why does the pastor teach Malachi 3 as though each individual may be blessed or cursed according to whether or not they tithe?

Exactly!  Funny thing, we hear people giving testimonies how God blessed them for tithing.  If God cursed the whole Nation of Israel because few were not tithing, wouldn't it stand to reason that that tither today should be cursed because I, and many others do not tithe? 

After all, God said in Malachi 3:6 that He changes not.

Again, thank you Gary, for your insight!  You bring much meat to the table.

[GaryArnold]

First, to make it clear, I believe anyone who attends church services should pay their fair share of the bills if they are financially able, and if they are financially able, they should pay even more to compensate for those who cannot afford to pay their fair share.

 

Do donations/contributions to a local church meet the definition of a gift?  Is that really considered “giving?”  Let’s start with the definition of a gift:

From Webster’s Dictionary:
Something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned.

From The American Heritage Dictionary
Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (NIV)
13Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and
those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should
receive their living from the gospel.

In other words, the preacher deserves to be paid for his services.  Although the payment is voluntary on the part of the payer, when you “give” or donate to the church, you are essentially paying for a service as well as helping to pay for the facilities that you, yourself, are benefiting from.  You benefit from the seating, air conditioning, program, etc.  That doesn’t even meet the definition of a true gift; therefore, should not really be considered giving at all.

Unfortunately, most church goers limit their “giving” to the local church and never really give a true gift to where it is needed.

Matthew 25:42-45 (NIV)
42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me
nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe
me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or
needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of
these, you did not do for me.’

In Matthew 25:42-45 Jesus tells us how to give to Him. We are giving to The Lord when
we feed the hungry, give to the poor, etc. Nowhere in the scriptures does God say that
when you give to the “Christian Church” you are giving to Him.

Because of this false teaching in today’s church, most church goers give little or nothing to the Lord.  They are paying for services and material things they benefit from.  Therefore, they aren’t even “giving” to begin with.  They are paying.
 

[GaryArnold]

Question:  Is preaching within 4 walls to basically the same audience week after week, month after month, year after year, really doing the Lord's work?  Don't the scriptures teach that the elders should teach the young just long enough to where they can go out and spread the gospel?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Question:  Is preaching within 4 walls to basically the same audience week after week, month after month, year after year, really doing the Lord's work?  Don't the scriptures teach that the elders should teach the young just long enough to where they can go out and spread the gospel?

A big problem in the majority of "Churches" today is their failure to equip the saints as the Scripture instructs them to do. 

For this reason, there are many who sit in the pews for decades and know nothing of what it means to serve.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

GaryArnold,

 

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[swathdiver]

When Stephen called those he was preaching to stiff-necked and perverse, why didn't Paul speak up and say that Stephen owed everyone an apology?  

 

Stephen was speaking to infidels.  You're among the faithful here.