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GaryArnold last won the day on August 28 2013

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  1. No, I didn't say that at all. I gave an example of a greedy pastor. I did not say or infer that all pastors who have more than those in the congregation are greedy.
  2. I often hear church goers and pastors say they didn't have money then, or that money wasn't commonly used then, etc. etc. That is pure nonsense. In contrast to the view that the tithes are used to fund the expenses of the church, money (not food) was collected separately by the priests and Levites from all Israel annually to maintain the temple (see 2 Chron 24:5, Neh 10:32). There was also other freewill giving of money to the house of God as seen in 2 King 12:4. 2 Chronicles 24:5 (KJV) 5And he gathered together the priests and the Levites, and said to them, Go out unto the cities of Judah, and gather of all Israel money to repair the house of your God from year to year, and see that ye hasten the matter. Howbeit the Levites hastened it not. Nehemiah 10:32 (KJV) 32Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God; 2 Kings 12:4-5 (KJV) 4And Jehoash said to the priests, All the money of the dedicated things that is brought into the house of the LORD, even the money of every one that passeth the account, the money that every man is set at, and all the money that cometh into any man’s heart to bring into the house of the LORD, 5Let the priests take it to them, every man of his acquaintance: and let them repair the breaches of the house, wheresoever any breach shall be found. Aside from the tithe of produce the priests received money as a type of poll tax on the first born ofIsrael(Num 3:45-51). They also collected money for the atonement of sins demonstrated in Exo 30:16, and which was used for the service of the tabernacle. In 2 Kings 12:16 the priests received the sin and trespass money which was not brought to the house of the Lord but belonged to the priests. 2 Kings 12:16 (KJV) 16The trespass money and sin money was not brought into the house of the LORD: it was the priests’. Numbers 3:45-51 (KJV) 45Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD. 46And for those that are to be redeemed of the two hundred and threescore and thirteen of the firstborn of the children of Israel, which are more than the Levites; 47Thou shalt even take five shekels apiece by the poll, after the shekel of the sanctuary shalt thou take them: (the shekel is twenty gerahs:) 48And thou shalt give the money, wherewith the odd number of them is to be redeemed, unto Aaron and to his sons. 49And Moses took the redemption money of them that were over and above them that were redeemed by the Levites: 50Of the firstborn of the children of Israel took he the money; a thousand three hundred and threescore and five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary: 51And Moses gave the money of them that were redeemed unto Aaron and to his sons, according to the word of the LORD, as the LORD commanded Moses. Exodus 30:16 (KJV) 16And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. One of the clearest passages of scripture which demonstrates that the tithe was nothing other than food can be found in Neh 10. In this chapter we see in verse 34 where wood for example, was given as an offering but it was not included in the tithes. In verse 32 we also note they contributed money annually for the service of the temple and again this was separate from the tithes which we come to realise when we get to verses 37 and 38. Here we note that the tithes were collected from the agricultural cities (cities of the tillage) only thus confirming what I said earlier that only food producers were required to tithe and that the tithe was never money. To add to that, what we notice from the New Testament scriptures is that the practice of tithing produce existed up to Jesus’ time as the Pharisees tithe herbs of mint, dill and cumin (Matt 23:23). This was clearly the practice of tithing and money was given separately to the temple treasury as we see in Mark 12:41. It is noteworthy to mention here that those who argue that Jesus did not abolish tithing, citing Matt 23:23, by the same logic refuses to acknowledge that the tithe was not money or the equivalent of earnings but food produce from food producers only. If Jesus did not change the tithe law then the tithe remains a tenth part of produce only from food producers. This point however is lost on “pro-tithers”. We note from Luke 16:14 that the Pharisees loved money yet Jesus did not rebuke them for tithing herbs instead of money and this is because under the law only produce could be tithed. It should be noted here also that people who were engaged with other professions but who also tilled the land on the side were also required to tithe of the produce of the ground. They did not however tithe of their income from their profession.
  3. Here's an example of a greedy pastor - One who takes money from those who can't afford a car and uses that money to buy a luxury car for himself. Another example - One who takes money from those who are worse off than himself. In other words, one who raises his standard of living at the expense of those living a lower standard of living. AND DOING IT BY MANIPULATING PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE GIVING IT TO GOD!!!!! Now please tell me - where is the PASTOR'S heart when he takes from those who have less than he has?
  4. We give, not tithe, with a cheerful heart. The Biblical tithe was paid, not a gift (Matthew 23:23). Being Spirit led instead of OT law and/or pastor led, I find myself giving more like 30% of my income each month, cheerfully. I can't be cheerful about paying my taxes. Tithing was very similar to paying taxes. Tithe - paid by those who inherited the promised land. Inheritance or Estate tax - paid from the estate or inheritance. Tithe - ONLY on property owners. Property tax - ONLY on property owners. Tithe - used to run the theocracy. Income tax - used to run the government. Tithe - doesn't apply to the poor. Luxury tax - doesn't apply to the poor. Tithing can also be compared to sharecropping. Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run: the priestly program, the national religious program, and the welfare program. Taken from God’s Plan for Giving, John MacArthur, Moody Press, 1985, page 76. God placed all of these verses in our Bibles to remind us that Levites were public officials of the state and tithes were included as state-taxation to support them. Taken from Should the Church Teach Tithing, Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D., page 70. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica, agrees that tithes were political taxes. Taken from Should the Church Teach Tithing, Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D., page 71. See also William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, New Testament Commentary: Exposition of Thessalonians, the Pastorals, and Hebrews (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1995), 187, for support of the relationship between taxes and tithing.
  5. Is Music Ministry in the scriptures? How about Youth Ministry? Singles Ministry? Need I go on? Being that I minister/teach, and I teach finances/stewardship, I consider my "job description" to be that of a Financial Minister. I don't use any title in front of my name other than that of "Brother."
  6. The members here are clearly revealing through scripture what their belief's - opinions are, while you strike back at them if it happens to not agree with you. I see a lot of beliefs and opinions expressed here, but absolutely NO scripture to back up tithing money, or even tithing from one's income. Opinions and/or beliefs mean nothing if there is no scripture to back them up. Unfortunately, too many believe what man teaches rather than what the scriptures teach. The tithing scriptures are clear. They aren't confusing. They aren't a mystery. God is not the author of confusion. If God wanted us to tithe from our income, God would have given instructions as to how to do it, and where to take it. Gross income or net income? Inheritances? (In the Old Testament, the eleven tribes that inherited the promised land did NOT tithe the land they inherited, but the Levites were required to tithe from their inheritance. God spells it out.) Gifts? Non-monetary gifts? In order to teach that tithing is valid on money and/or income, man has to make up the rules. Do you really think that God would leave it up to man to determine His tithe?
  7. Whether it's incorporated or not, the point is the same. As soon as a "local church" requires or offers membership, it puts it out of the category of being like a club. This whole "church membership" thing is man made. Just like the tithing doctrine taught in so many churches today. Just a man-made doctrine as can easily be found when researching the history of tithing money in the Christian Church.
  8. Please tell me, just how many New Testament Churches does God have? I thought the scriptures teach there is ONE Church, and all born-again believers are a member. What you are doing is holding membership in a corporation doing business as a church. Similar to holding membership in a club.
  9. Question: Is preaching within 4 walls to basically the same audience week after week, month after month, year after year, really doing the Lord's work? Don't the scriptures teach that the elders should teach the young just long enough to where they can go out and spread the gospel?
  10. First, to make it clear, I believe anyone who attends church services should pay their fair share of the bills if they are financially able, and if they are financially able, they should pay even more to compensate for those who cannot afford to pay their fair share. Do donations/contributions to a local church meet the definition of a gift? Is that really considered “giving?” Let’s start with the definition of a gift: From Webster’s Dictionary: Something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned. From The American Heritage Dictionary Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (NIV) 13Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. In other words, the preacher deserves to be paid for his services. Although the payment is voluntary on the part of the payer, when you “give” or donate to the church, you are essentially paying for a service as well as helping to pay for the facilities that you, yourself, are benefiting from. You benefit from the seating, air conditioning, program, etc. That doesn’t even meet the definition of a true gift; therefore, should not really be considered giving at all. Unfortunately, most church goers limit their “giving” to the local church and never really give a true gift to where it is needed. Matthew 25:42-45 (NIV) 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ In Matthew 25:42-45 Jesus tells us how to give to Him. We are giving to The Lord when we feed the hungry, give to the poor, etc. Nowhere in the scriptures does God say that when you give to the “Christian Church” you are giving to Him. Because of this false teaching in today’s church, most church goers give little or nothing to the Lord. They are paying for services and material things they benefit from. Therefore, they aren’t even “giving” to begin with. They are paying.
  11. Malachi 3:9 (KJV) Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. THIS WHOLE NATION. The curse was not on the individual. The blessing was not for the individual. It was a NATION thing, not an individual thing. Unfortunately, the teaching has been wrong in the churches for over 100 years now and that makes it hard for those who were taught wrong to see the truth." Notice that when the nation was cursed, even the righteous were taken away with the punishment for the curse. That is why the ancient prophets like Ezekiel and Daniel prophesied DURING THE CAPTIVITY. Jeremiah prophesied of the captivity BEFORE it happened, and was taken away WHEN IT HAPPENED. This should be so easy to see! The blessing and the curse of the law was COLLECTIVE, AS A NATION, not individual. So why does the pastor teach Malachi 3 as though each individual may be blessed or cursed according to whether or not they tithe?
  12. Can anyone show me ANY scriptures where ANYONE is commanded or even encouraged to give one penny to a corporation doing business as a church? The OT tithe was given to the Levites. The Levites were servants to the priests - like today's ushers, musicians, singers, janitor, secretary, etc. Then those who received the tithe gave a tenth from that tithe to the priest. Is that the way tithing is taught today? I am convinced, from my own observance, that few pastors today are capable or qualified to teach NT giving principles and good financial stewardship. If they knew how to teach the NT giving principles properly, I am convinced giving would INCREASE far above what they are getting teaching the false tithing doctrine invented by church leaders around 1870.
  13. Why do you tell them they should start their giving at 10% when the scriptures say they should give according to what God has put in their heart? Are you trying to take it out of God's hands? A big problem with tithe teachers is that they seem to lack faith that God will take care of His church. They try to take it out of God's hands and teach it the way they want instead of the way God wants.
  14. Preacher: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek. Melchizedek is a type of Christ, and Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Therefore, we should tithe to Christ. Gen. 14 w/ Psalm 110 and Heb. 7 God's Word: in agreement. Abram tithed to Melchizedek and kept NOTHING for himself. Therefore, we should keep nothing for ourselves. Is that the logic you use when reading the scriptures?
  15. Preacher: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek. Melchizedek is a type of Christ, and Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Therefore, we should tithe to Christ. Gen. 14 w/ Psalm 110 and Heb. 7 God's Word: in agreement. Abram directly gave a tenth to Melchizedek. Can you directly give a tenth to Christ? Do the scriptures tell us exactly who Christ has given permission to receive His tithe? Abram's tithe was not even carried forward into the law; therefore, it would appear from the scriptures, that God didn't even want a tenth of the spoils to begin with (Numbers 31). According to Hebrews 7:5,12,18, the tithe was disannulled.

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